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Will Bretons be optimal for anything in the age of Morrowind

Why I started this thread:

  • Altmers are clearly better than Bretons for damage-oriented roles. But the advantage has always been less for healing or tanking.
  • Altmers have also been better than Bretons for sustain. But Morrowind will cause people to increase their consumption of magicka from sources other than recovery. So the relative position of Bretons and Altmers in sustain is likely to swing at least somewhat in the Breton direction.

 

Strictly from a character optimization standpoint, High Elves seem better than Bretons for any or almost any use cases.

  1. Max magicka is of course a wash.
  2. 9% magicka recovery is better than 3% magicka cost reduction, according to every calculation I've seen pre-Morrowind.
  3. A boost to elemental damage is very nice.
  4. An increase in magicka mitigation is relatively useless.

Let's consider that in more detail, assuming what he now know about Morrowind.

In the area of elemental damage boost (and this isn't much affected by (Morrowind-specific changes):

  • A huge fraction of sorcerer and DK damage is elemental.
  • All magicka classes are likely to run Elemental Blockade, perhaps even if they're in healing or (somewhat less likely) tanking roles.
  • All magicka classes are likely to get a lot of their damage from basic attacks. The only case where this won't be elemental damage could be healers using the resto staff to optimize magicka return.
  • All classes, if they use ranged spammables at all, are likely to use ones that do elemental damage. The main exceptions are healing-oriented nightblades.
  • Damage-oriented monster sets are commonly elemental.
  • Most magicka damage ultimates do elemental damage.

So if your main focus is damage, the Altmer buff is a huge boost. If it isn't, then you probably care less, both because you care less about damage in general and -- especially for templars and nightblades -- because the fraction of damage that you do do that is elemental could wind up being lower.

As for Breton mitigation, I don't have strong opinions. But some observations -- also not much affected by Morrowind-specific issues -- start:

  • A lot of specs use shields.
  • If you don't use shields and want to boost mitigation, most other ways of doing so gain physical and spell mitigation pretty equally.
  • If you only care about mitigation a little bit -- e.g. because more mitigation means you have to invest less in max health -- then you're likely to care most about your worst mitigation stat.
  • Exception: Spell mitigation is a particular need for vampires.

In what contexts, if any, is Breton mitigation actually important?

Finally, we get to magicka sustain, and here of course the Morrowind changes do matter. I'll start by noting:

  • A nominal 3% spell cost reduction winds up being more like 3 1/2 - 4% when stacked with other spell cost reduction. Edit: I may have understated this. Please see below.
  • Spell cost reduction in most cases applies to everything you do with magicka. (Main exception: Blocking when you have an ice staff equipped.)

So if Magicka Recovery provides a majority or a sufficiently large minority of your overall available magicka in a fight, 9% recovery is better than 3% spell cost reduction. Otherwise the advantage could flip. Has anybody tested or calculated how that is likely to work out in Morrowind-era practice?

 

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11 Replies
  1. #1

    Ghnami

    Member519 Posts

    I really don't see the obvious betternes of regen over cost reduction.

    Think of it this way, if someone has 2k regen, 9% means you'll get 2180 every 2 seconds, so 90 per second. If your skills cost 3k or more, 3% is 90, and one skill per second, so 90 per second, more with higher cost skills less with lower.

    Sure magika regen ticks when you're not using skills but 2k regen is a lot and a 3k cost spell isn't. Could you point to how you figured this?

    Always down to chat in-game. IGN: Ghnami

  2. #2

    FrancisCrawford

    Contributor3062 Posts
    Ghnami wrote on May 7, 2017

    I really don’t see the obvious betternes of regen over cost reduction.

    Think of it this way, if someone has 2k regen, 9% means you’ll get 2180 every 2 seconds, so 90 per second. If your skills cost 3k or more, 3% is 90, and one skill per second, so 90 per second, more with higher cost skills less with lower.

    Sure magika regen ticks when you’re not using skills but 2k regen is a lot and a 3k cost spell isn’t. Could you point to how you figured this?

    I don't now recall either the specific thread nor a good hook for searching to find it. That said, I think it is more useful to estimate the value of the regen buff differently, by asking what fraction of total available magicka it applies to. Assuming that regen multipliers stack additively, which I believe is correct, the regen buff applies to:

    • Magicka regen due to character level
    • Magicka regen due to gear
    • Magicka regen, if any, from your drink/food
    • Magicka regen, if any, from your mundus stone

    but not to:

    • Your initial pool of magicka
    • Any magicka from pots
    • Any magicka from orbs/shards
    • Magicka regenerated from heavy attacks

    Then there's magicka obtained via a variety of active or passive skills. In most cases I think that is not boosted by the regen buff. (Indeed, I can't think of a single exception at the moment, but I could easily be forgetting something.)

     

     

     

    General tips

    A sorcerer leveling guide

  3. #3

    FrancisCrawford

    Contributor3062 Posts

    I fear I may have initially understated the benefit of 3% cost reduction. It's likely to be at least 4% in all cases, at least for max CP characters.

    Other sources of cost reduction include, IIRC:

    • 15% from champion points in Morrowind, down from 25%.
    • 2% per piece of light armor in Morrowind, down from 3%.

    Assuming 5 light armor, that's 25%; i.e., spell costs are 75% of their base value. So a nominal 3% reduction would actually be a 4% increase in the amount of possible spellcasting right there. Any additional cost reductions would push the benefit of the 3% even higher; candidates for such reductions include:

    • Wearing 6-7 pieces of light armor.
    • Wearing Seducer's.
    • Using spell cost reduction glyphs.
    • Having access to the Templar cost-reduction class passive.

    General tips

    A sorcerer leveling guide

  4. #4

    Latin

    Moderator1308 Posts

    I doubt Breton will be optimal for anything in Morrowind, due to non-optimal damage, sustain and lack of versatility. On paper, the cost reduction might look great considering the proposed changes, but it really isn't.

    FrancisCrawford wrote on May 7, 2017

    15% from champion points in Morrowind, down from 25%.

    Champion points don't give cost reduction anymore, Magician was replaced.

    By percentage difference in cost reduction, you will get less than the nominal 3% from the racial passive.

    If you consider other factors like light armour, the relative difference is even smaller than what you currently have on live, because of the change in Evocation (from 3% to 2%).

    e pluribus unum

  5. #5

    FrancisCrawford

    Contributor3062 Posts
    Latin wrote on May 7, 2017

    Champion points don’t give cost reduction anymore, Magician was replaced.

    Sloppy of me not to look that up. Thanks!

    So it's regeneration that they still give? Is that additive to the Altmer racial bonus, or multiplicative with it?

    General tips

    A sorcerer leveling guide

  6. #6

    FrancisCrawford

    Contributor3062 Posts
    Latin wrote on May 7, 2017

    By percentage difference in cost reduction, you will get less than the nominal 3% from the racial passive.

    How can that be? I thought that cost reduction is additive, in which case you actually get more than the nominal amount.

    General tips

    A sorcerer leveling guide

  7. #7

    Ghnami

    Member519 Posts
    Latin wrote on May 7, 2017

    but it really isn’t.

    I'm not convinced still...the regen I'm seeing is super duper low compared to 3% of the cost of two spells. And if both races are going to have to heavy attack anyway in Morrowind then the reduction will make the magika returned more effective.

    3% isn't very much, but let's remind ourselves 9% is really small too. How much regeneration do people have here? Basically you have to spend 3 times your regeneration in magika to make 3% worth it, and even with 1200 magika regen I easily spend 4k+every 2 seconds.

    I've always considered dark elves fire builds to be nominally better than high elves to be nominally better than breton dps. I prefer breton because I've also always considered resource management to rank breton, high elf, dark elf.

    Always down to chat in-game. IGN: Ghnami

  8. #8

    Deuteriumhydroxid

    Member6 Posts
    FrancisCrawford wrote on May 8, 2017

    So it’s regeneration that they still give? Is that additive to the Altmer racial bonus, or multiplicative with it?

    It is additive at least if they don't changed it with morrowind. With Arcanist, Light Armor and Major Intellect the regen increase the Altmer passive grants is actually at around 6% if you want to know how much multiplicative increase it grants.

  9. #9

    Chiefpoppasquat

    Member65 Posts

    For what it's worth I really like Breton for stam dk in pvp probally not optimal but if used correctly can be.

    PS4 na chiefpoppasquat

    psn chiefpoppasquatt

  10. #10

    Latin

    Moderator1308 Posts
    FrancisCrawford wrote on May 8, 2017

    Latin said on May 7, 2017 :

    By percentage difference in cost reduction, you will get less than the nominal 3% from the racial passive.

    How can that be? I thought that cost reduction is additive, in which case you actually get more than the nominal amount.

    By your original post, the focus was for the case where you are not primarily doing damage. If you are heavy attacking or not using skill on every GCD, then cost reduction doesn't get fully utilised in your rotation. You are correct that you get more, but only when you are actually casting skills that cost magicka.

    You need to work out the rate of your magicka depletion under your normal rotation or simulated routine (if you are healing/supporting or tanking), to determine how much of that cost reduction is effective over every second for the combat event. In other words, how much longer does it extend your resource pool?

    FrancisCrawford wrote on May 8, 2017

    Is that additive to the Altmer racial bonus, or multiplicative with it?

    Additive with Arcanist, but multiplicative with base recovery, gear and mundus.

    Ghnami wrote on May 8, 2017

    3% isn’t very much, but let’s remind ourselves 9% is really small too. How much regeneration do people have here? Basically you have to spend 3 times your regeneration in magika to make 3% worth it, and even with 1200 magika regen I easily spend 4k+every 2 seconds.

    I wouldn't stack regen or cost reduction purposefully if I was doing damage, especially for the proposed changes and the perceived increasing use of heavy attacks for sustain. Most dps already use full spell damage glyphs, so the regen and cost reduction are only from armour, CP and racial/skill passives.

    e pluribus unum

  11. #11

    ConjuringFire

    Member5 Posts

    So now that Morrowind has gone live what is the conclusion? Is Breton optimal for anything?

    Was thinking about making a Breton MagBlade but after reading this it seems that Altmer would make life easier on the regen side and Dunmer would pump out more dmg and be helpful if I go vamp.

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