Tamriel Foundry

The finesse system and balance between melee and ranged comb

It seems to me that melee will have a distinct advantage in building their ultimates earning more gold and rewards due to being on the front line. I hope they are able to balance this well or everyone will play a melee.

About Haroute:

Haroute hasn't shared anything about themselves.

32 Replies
  1. #1

    Scootter

    Member216 Posts

    I haven't seen for sure how gold and rewards will be ditributed but I would think if ranged was engaged they would get gold and rewards and not have to be within melee range.  Or so I would hope it works something like that.

  2. #2

    Haroute

    Member19 Posts

    How you get the rewards is from avoiding attacks/blocking and CC i just have a feeling that front line fighters will have an advantage due to blocking and the ability to cc with most games putting enemy attacks on the melee, therefore putting melee at an advantage with more attacks to avoid/block

  3. #3

    Scootter

    Member216 Posts

    Ahh ok, I smell what you are cooking now.  That is interesting and I would like to know as well.

  4. #4

    revcasy

    Member47 Posts

    Maybe they will just increase the finesse rewards for doing something from range, so that some kind of parity with melee is achieved.

  5. #5

    Panterra Arius

    Banned602 Posts

    I think range shouldn't need a lot of defense, maybe though they could get skills in things like acrobatics, or speed? making the run faster, or get around quicker, thus making it even for the melee people who will constantly be being boosted from defending in the frontline.

    Thats just my personal view considering i rather swift moving and shooting over stealthing and firing. Ranged people shouldn't have to just rely on stealth as their only defense or be forced to enter melee to train defense.

    With the guidance of Apollo, Paris struck down the invincible Aristos Achaion. – i shall do my part to guide The BBoA.

     

    Join the BBoA guild - http://bosmerarchers.enjin.com/

  6. #6

    Atropos

    Administrator3186 Posts

    You raise an interesting point @Haroute. I had not thought of that yet, but I agree...melee should have an easier time accumulating high finesse scores. I wonder if ZeniMax will plan to adjust resource accumulation depending on weapon type or something...

    We shall see!

    Creator of Ashen Foundry and Tamriel Foundry. Former guildmaster of Entropy Rising. Economist and MMO enthusiast.

  7. #7

    Skoomajim

    Member58 Posts

    No way Zeni is dumb enough to give any play style an upper hand in any way, especially in something as important as this. Finesse, special abilities, and working together are going to be such a big part of the gameplay. They don't want you standing in place, button mashing, staring at your UI and focusing on a rotation. They want you to react to the specific situation, so why would they be dumb enough to give a certain play style more situations to positively react to and be rewarded for?

    A caster might not can block with a shield, or shield bash, or directly avoid a weapon swing, but there may be other ways to build finesse that melee does not have to counter, like silence, or certain CCs, or AOE effects used correctly, or interrupts, etc.

  8. #8

    Haroute

    Member19 Posts

    You would think that but over the last 10 years i have seen many mmo's have problems like this balancing stuff like this in games is hard and almost nvr turns out right when the game is released.

  9. #9

    LGAllastair

    Member573 Posts

    AS I have stated in other threads, I think this system is doomed to fail. I'm glad I'll PvP mostly so I can pretty much ignore the PvE reward mechanics.

    Allastair – High Elder of Legend Gaming

  10. #10

    Uhmyahbrad

    Member100 Posts

    If they balance ranged and melee, then i'll be the lazy one to choose ranged, just so i don't have to run out in battle like a retard with a battleaxe. Although that sounds extremely fun, i'm still too lazy.

  11. #11

    Skoomajim

    Member58 Posts

    Hmm...quite a bit of low expectations and negativity. I'm optimistic.

    You know, they do play the game as they make it. It's called testing. Oh, and there's a beta. We'll just see I guess.

  12. #12

    Panterra Arius

    Banned602 Posts

    Yeah but so far melee seems normal like skyrim, MAges can now target enemies with spells.. doesn't seem to bright for archery hope being like skyrim..

    With the guidance of Apollo, Paris struck down the invincible Aristos Achaion. – i shall do my part to guide The BBoA.

     

    Join the BBoA guild - http://bosmerarchers.enjin.com/

  13. #13

    Shakir

    Member65 Posts

    If they implement the system of Skyrim, that for example a shot to the head does more damage, it would work. But it's quite difficult because of lag and connection difficulties. Maybe, when you add poison to the arrows or you have certain perks, that paralyze the target for some seconds or throw them to the ground, you will get higher finesse points, but all this except of the poison is based on luck...

    ”Psst. Hey, I know who you are. Hail Sithis!”

  14. #14

    LGAllastair

    Member573 Posts

    I just think that the potential of this never actually being balanced is too high. I am a PvPer, I value free play style and free fighting, I like to see people improvising in PvE, actually going out of the formula set by the standard MMO community to do something cool and sometimes exceptionally good for that fight. Things that most people would not have thought of doing. And I see that a system like this not only can't consider these things, as it also could punish players for doing it.

    Now, the good side and the ideal way for this system to works is that it is made in a way that the moves giving you finesse points and adding to your "rank"in that fight will be general enough that you don't have to be thinking much about them when you fight, you just do your best and the game takes care of the rest without being unfair. But we all know that establishing computers to determine if the course of a fight was good for a player or not good is complicated and it requires lots and lots of testing. As people have said above, there will be testing in beta and internal testing, so I hope they can reach a good place with this, but it is a complicated matter that if left unbalanced will ruin the experience for a lot of people.

    They have something like this in SWTOR PvP, the medals system. You get medals for doing things in a PvP match, taking a node gives you attack points, interrupting someone capping and killing them while they are attacking give you defensive points, sitting at a node guarding grants you points over time, even if you're not fighting, killing people gives you medals, delivering a killing blow, causing a certain amount of damage, of healing, of protection. All of those things give you medals. Now they are somewhat ballanced in a way that people play the game without paying much attention to those medals and get what they deserve based on what they do. But when the game launched, healers never got attack medals, nor did tanks that only guarded. Healers never got medals for killing a certain amount of people or delivering killing blows. Players would often forget objectives and go farm kills and damage medals. It took a few months for them to see all the issues, go back to it, provide more objective based medals and benefits to healers, change the way a few things work to get to the point where it is now. And this was in controled and specific Warzones (there are 5 of them only), with defined objectives and strategies that can't change much.

    Even with beta, even with testing from the players, the major issues only showed up after a month of launch and it took them another 3-4 months to fix it. And even now, there are some strategies that are considered extremely efficient, but that give the player executing it absolutely no medals because they don t consist of killing, they don't consist of healing, they don't consist of taking or defending a node, they are basically a team work effort where one player has to CC and slow the others while the rest of the group does things. The group gets medals, but the player doing the CC and slow gets nothing.

    SWTOR is just a simple example, I agree that it is a different game. Now imagine the enormous versatility of PvE combat in this game, given that pretty much anyone can do anything. Imagine the number of different fights and mechanics to add to this finesse system. Add to it the issue brought up in this thread, difference between melee and ranged. How do they get people to not exploit and "cheat" the computer to give them more finesse points? They will have to design a system similar to WoW's boss fight achievements, that monitor even how many times you step in the fire and give you an achievement for not doing it once in a fight. It is really not simple, and can't be tested in beta to the extent it needs to be tested. The problem is, it is not just an achievement system, the gear you get and your progression are affected by it, so if they take too long to fix it, PvE will be seriously hurt.

    So, I'm not being pessimistic, I'm just assessing the situation and looking back at the past in games when these automated system of monitoring performance were implemented, and they are a pain to get right, unless the combat is dull or limited, which would suck even worse if it were.

    Allastair – High Elder of Legend Gaming

  15. #15

    Atropos

    Administrator3186 Posts

    Have to say, I agree with you @LGAllastair, although the finesse system may not deter creative thinking.

    • If a power attack is coming at you, you probably want to block or dodge it
    • If a ground target attack is under you, you probably want to move out of the AoE
    • If you get CCed, you probably want to break out of it
    • etc...

    We'll see how it works out, although I should warn you that the finesse mechanic will also impact your RvR experience since finesse accumulation governs your ultimate ability usage.

    Creator of Ashen Foundry and Tamriel Foundry. Former guildmaster of Entropy Rising. Economist and MMO enthusiast.

  16. #16

    Jeimaiku

    Member47 Posts

    There's also a reasonable chance that ranged classes in groups may raise their finesse by different means.

    Examples - strong ranged attacks to stagger a foe about to strike your melee companion, crowd control effects, prioritization of targets to go with melee or facilitating combo effects.

  17. #17

    LGAllastair

    Member573 Posts

    I think we have to see more info. If they give us more details of what Finesse is and how it influences the fight, then it might be the case that the system is simpler than I had imagined and all that wall of text I wrote on the other page is not applicable. I'm eagerly waiting.

    Allastair – High Elder of Legend Gaming

  18. #18

    Dash

    Member684 Posts

    If you are solo and a mage/archer, I would reckon that there would be kiting, CC, and dodging.

    If you are duo or more then I would still say that roots and slows and debuffing would contribute but that the big contributor would be if a melee dodges or blocks and your next move is the one that contributes in a synergistic type of way to the fight would be awarded.

    Either way, I need to learn a lot more before I start praising this system, there is just too much unknown and not reveled.

  19. #19

    Panterra Arius

    Banned602 Posts

    @Atropos i agree, its natural habit, so though i want to hit my target with a bow, i want it to happen because im skilled enough not because targeting did it for me

    With the guidance of Apollo, Paris struck down the invincible Aristos Achaion. – i shall do my part to guide The BBoA.

     

    Join the BBoA guild - http://bosmerarchers.enjin.com/

  20. #20

    schnoffle

    Member961 Posts

    I think there will be a lot more to the finesse system than running in and hitting/dodging/blocking.  Healers should get it for heals, CC should also get some.  I think if the teams works together and gets some of the synergy skills as well than that should be worth more.  I am interested to see how this will work

    I do wonder how this will affect certain drops like weapons and armor.  Will certain mobs drop only certain items for the higher finesse players, or will it basically be a random based off the player/mob level?  I could see this being both beneficial and a problem.  If it were random, it would cut down on any open world camping of certain mobs, however, trying to find a certain piece of gear that isn't crafted will be that much harder.

Respond

Sorry, you must first log in or register for a Tamriel Foundry account before you may comment on articles!

Please respect the Tamriel Foundry Code of Conduct when commenting on articles.