Simple Questions – Simple Answers Thread IX

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    Latin

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    OrcInSorc said on December 28, 2017 :

    Unfortunately I don’t know what you mean by ICD!

    ICD as in internal cooldown.

    Sets like these that have weapon/spell damage proc on certain conditions usually carry an internal cooldown for balance purposes.

    Another common example is Burning Spellweave, which has a 15% chance on Flame damage ability use, to proc 525 spell damage for 8 s, with a cooldown that is explicitly stated as 12 s – this equates to a downtime of 4 s and therefore, a maximum uptime of 66%. If you can have this proc whenever it comes off cooldown, the average spell damage equivalence over the period is 350. Having this benchmark will help you interpret how much more damage you will be doing on average, thus allowing you to compare against another set bonus more easily (e.g. looking at what uptime you get in a particular combat event and deducing how much effective spell damage you are gaining; thereafter looking at and testing with other comparable options).

    The tooltip of Swamp Raider does not explicitly specify whether it has an ICD.

    If Volatile Armour works with your rotation then by all means. I personally do not use it, so I cannot shed any light regarding its effectiveness in combat (trials) with relation to proc Swamp Raider.

    Admittedly, I am not entirely convinced by the set due to the limitation to Poison and Disease damage skills; furthermore, I do not possess the set, which makes testing on Live rather difficult. But if you have found some degrees of success in your tests, please feel free to report back.

    e pluribus unum

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    OrcInSorc

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    Latin said on December 28, 2017 :

    OrcInSorc said on December 28, 2017 :

    Unfortunately I don’t know what you mean by ICD!

    ICD as in internal cooldown.

    (…)

    Thanks again :)

     

    I’m yet to use it. Just mentally building the idea for now. I used Swamp Raider on my Warden Archer which worked wonders. Just right now I’m unsure what to go for. Hundings looks solid, but I suppose the inner hipster in me is screaming don’t do it!

     

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    OrcInSorc

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    I have another woe! D:

    I apologise for not posting this earlier.

    Equilibrium.

    It reduces the strength of damage shields for 4s. Does that apply to all? For example Combat Physician, would it proc at half strength if within those 4 seconds or is it limited to casted shields?

     

     

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    FrancisCrawford

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    Breton Sorcerer

    In the warden’s Green Balance line, do Lotus Blossom health restorations count as real heals? E.g. do they proc the Nature’s Gift passive?

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    Latin

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    FrancisCrawford said on December 30, 2017 :

    In the warden’s Green Balance line, do Lotus Blossom health restorations count as real heals? E.g. do they proc the Nature’s Gift passive?

    Yes, it does proc the Nature’s Gift passive.

    OrcInSorc said on December 30, 2017 :

    It reduces the strength of damage shields for 4s. Does that apply to all? For example Combat Physician, would it proc at half strength if within those 4 seconds or is it limited to casted shields?

    It reduces the strength of all the shields that you cast, irrespective of whether the target is yourself, your allies or everyone in the immediate vicinity, e.g. Igneous Shield, Healing Ward and Harness Magicka. But I don’t know if it applies to proc effect like that of Combat Physician.

    e pluribus unum

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    FrancisCrawford

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    Latin said on December 28, 2017 :

    Burning Spellweave, which has a 15% chance on Flame damage ability use,

     

    The actual tooltip phrase is “When you deal damage with a flame damage ability”. What does that include or exclude? I’m guessing:

    • Any damage dealt by a skill that entirely does flame damage, whether on the initial hit or as a DoT, counts. (Examples: Reflective Light, multiple DK skills, Destructive Clench or Elemental Blockade cast with a fire staff.)
    • The fire damage part of mixed-type skills counts. (Is there any example other than Force Shock & morphs?)
    • Light and heavy attacks with an inferno staff count.
    • Burning damage does not count.
    • Flame damage procs from other equipment sets do count.

    How’m I doing? :)

     

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    Latin

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    FrancisCrawford said on December 31, 2017 :

    The actual tooltip phrase is “When you deal damage with a flame damage ability”. What does that include or exclude? I’m guessing:

    Any damage dealt by a skill that entirely does flame damage, whether on the initial hit or as a DoT, counts. (Examples: Reflective Light, multiple DK skills, Destructive Clench or Elemental Blockade cast with a fire staff.)
    The fire damage part of mixed-type skills counts. (Is there any example other than Force Shock & morphs?)
    Light and heavy attacks with an inferno staff count.
    Burning damage does not count.

    Yes.

    Cannot think of another example other than Force Shock.

     

    FrancisCrawford said on December 31, 2017 :

    Flame damage procs from other equipment sets do count.

    The proc of one set cannot proc the effect of another.

    e pluribus unum

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    Lierre

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    Hi !

    I’m currently experiencing the Alcast’s Racer build (Warden) which is a bow/bow build.
    And I was wondering if a monster set such as Mephala’s could be useful in PVE ?

    It will kind of allow me to stop an ennemy from coming at me.

    The build is more of a AOE build so I really don’t know if it’s relevant.

     

    Thanks in advance ! I hope that I didn’t post in the wrong topic by the way ahha

     

     

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    FrancisCrawford

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    Latin said on January 1, 2018 :

    The proc of one set cannot proc the effect of another.

    The opposite is said in some of our (not current) build threads. Do you recall approximately when it became true?

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    Latin

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    Lierre said on January 3, 2018 :

    Hi !

    I’m currently experiencing the Alcast’s Racer build (Warden) which is a bow/bow build.
    And I was wondering if a monster set such as Mephala’s could be useful in PVE ?

    It will kind of allow me to stop an ennemy from coming at me.

    The build is more of a AOE build so I really don’t know if it’s relevant.

    Thanks in advance ! I hope that I didn’t post in the wrong topic by the way ahha

    Mephala is a good choice because it can proc on target from range, which is crucial for a bow/bow build. In comparison, Kragh and Velidreth function better in melee range. The effect of Mephala is most profound when the target is stationary to begin with, which means that it takes damage from the full 10 s duration.

    The snare itself may be useful for melee-based trash mobs, but it isn’t going to do anything against bosses and ranged-based trash mobs; in other words, its effectiveness in this regards will depend on how the tank position the mobs with respect to each other.

    With that said, the build thread specified the use of two 5-piece sets in TFS and VO, in addition to Maelstrom and Master bows. Adding Mephala will mean reducing one of the 5-piece sets to a 3-piece. This will probably be an adverse change, because in TFS you have physical penetration and VO grants sustain and mobility.

    Perhaps Mephala could still be used if you are still gearing towards the two sets mentioned; but I assert that 5 pieces each of the two sets, even in the sub-optimal traits will be better than using 2 pieces of Mephala due to the magnitude of their 5-piece effects in dungeons and trials.

     

    FrancisCrawford said on January 3, 2018 :

    The opposite is said in some of our (not current) build threads. Do you recall approximately when it became true?

    I suppose I should rephrase that and say “The proc effect of some sets cannot proc the set effect of some other sets”.

    From testing, it seems that BSW cannot proc, much like Flame Blossom and Bahraha’s Curse. But a set like Mad Tinkerer seems to be able to proc off the effect of another set like Ilambris.

    So I suppose it’s something to be evaluated on a set-by-set basis.

    e pluribus unum

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    Lierre

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    Thank you Latin!

    Your answer is awesome and full of details, thx !

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    kinettic29

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    Will mag sorcs be using flame staffs in new patch if offbalance stays as it is on pts

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    Latin

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    kinettic29 said on January 12, 2018 :

    Will mag sorcs be using flame staffs in new patch if offbalance stays as it is on pts

    I’m inclined to say Lightning for Sorc, because you still have the 5% from Energised II. But I need to do more testing on the PTS to see how it works out in vMA and in group scenarios.

    It is also important to keep in mind that based on recent history of PTS and the eventual patch that goes Live, there could be significant changes still; so I would be cautious if farming, crafting or planning ahead.

    e pluribus unum

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    Jkleven

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    is there any thread about recommended min stats or stats milestones? like “if you are stam DD you should aim for 20k health, 30k stam, X stam regen   ect…”

    And the same for magica/stam DD, Tank, Healer PVP/PVE.

    This could be a good tool for beginners when making a build.

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    Latin

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    Jkleven said on January 14, 2018 :

    is there any thread about recommended min stats or stats milestones? like “if you are stam DD you should aim for 20k health, 30k stam, X stam regen ect…”

    And the same for magica/stam DD, Tank, Healer PVP/PVE.

    This could be a good tool for beginners when making a build.

    No, I don’t think so. But I am not surprised at that.

    If it helps as a ‘simple answer’, for beginners, you can aim for 25k health and 25k resistance for a pledge tank, 18k health for DPS and healer. Having higher health will give you more room for mistakes, but there is a need to strike a balance so that you don’t erode into your damage and utility capabilities too much. Regen or cost reduction may not be that important if you incorporate heavy attacks into a build. But if you decide to have regen/cost reduction set bonus/enchants in the setup, it will help to consider the opportunity cost of having those set bonus instead of more offensive ones like damage/max stat – i.e. do they work out better in actual combat events?

    When you are testing a build, it helps to keep in mind the content you want to clear, and to take note of any problems you encounter while testing. So that you can troubleshoot afterwards and adjust the stats, sets, skills and rotation accordingly.

     

    If you want a more elaborate answer, read on.

    IMO having recommended stats that are not build-specific is not as useful as it sounds.

    Min stats or stat benchmark vary a lot because of the different setups, objectives and progression of characters and groups in game. We will have to make a lot of assumptions and define a lot of boundary conditions to fulfil this. Even then, there is no way to effectively cover the needs of ‘beginners’ because there may be external factors that influence the suitability of having certain stats – the trial leaders may have their own criteria, higher latency may mean that one will need more health, having a preference on certain playstyle may change the benchmark that is conductive to a decent performance.

     

    There is also the need to define ‘beginners’, because the skills, passives, gear, funds and group support that they will have access to will vary. For example, the first 300 champion points will increase the attribute pools, do we assume that ‘beginners’ have access to all 300? The increase is not trivial. What about Undaunted Mettle? Is that something that is attainable? Did the beginner do dungeons regularly while leveling? Do we assume that the character is using 7/0/0 or 5/1/1 (or other variations)?

    Class differences will also play a role in the stats the character will have. Sorc, for example, have Bound Armaments and Bound Aegis, which increase Max Stam and Mag by 8% respectively. Then their attribute pool may be systematically higher. Templar has Balanced Warrior passive, which increases Weapon Damage by 6%. Nightblades have Magicka Flood and Refreshing Shadows, modifying their stats. Racial difference also matter; if you are using Altmer for a stamina build, you are going to have much lower stamina pool and poorer sustain than a Redguard for example. An Imperial tank will have higher attributes than a Khajiit.

     

    The intended content a build will aim to clear may also influence the required stats. A tank build for pledges can get away with lower health and resistance; if confident, one can even walk in with DPS gear. Shield tanks will obviously have more health, but they will have less stamina/magicka pools for other utilities – the effectiveness will then depend on group support available. What kind of support do ‘beginners’ get?

     

    Newer DPS players may wish to run with higher health to compensate for mistakes in dungeons and/or trials. But how high will again depend on setup and group support.

    Purple regen food will also result in lower health and stam/mag than conventional blue food, but is the regen effective?

    Set choices will vary from one build to another, and so will the max stam/mag, weapon/spell critical, weapon/spell damage, physical/spell penetration and etc.

    You also have Champion points allocation that is going to be more dependent on the individual players and their execution of their rotations, rather than the nature of the builds they choose. This will need to be worked out on a case by case basis using Addons where possible, because it can make a bigger difference than a few thousand max stamina/magicka either way.

    In PvP, you have Battle Spirit, which increases your health by 5000, but also decreases the size of your damage shields, amount of damage taken and healing received by 50%. Incoming damage (from other players) can also crit. The group and gameplay dynamics are also wildly different and dependent on the build objective and skill/set choices.

     

    The salient point is that the variability means that it is useful to understand how the classes are usually played, know how the skills are being used for different roles, and the difference between the different classes, races and playstyle. This will give beginners a better foundation and direction to work from, for their own builds than having to conform to a set of arbitrary benchmark from the start. Through testing, their builds can then be refined into something that work better as they progress towards the endgame.

    e pluribus unum

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    Jkleven

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    @latin

    If we would make a chart for this we dont have to calculate all the buffs and passive bonuses you can get from every race, class and skill lines. The player that is making a build will have too make this calculations on their own. What i mean is that a stam DD should have roughly 18k health no matter if it is a bosmer or orc.

    Now if you like to have higher because you are struggling with survivability, go ahead, but atleast the new players who are making their first build have something to go on. The more experienced player may know that 13K health is’nt enough because you will get oneshotted from alot of dungeon bosses ect. so they might recommend 18K as a minimum.

    What I’m looking for is that I consider myself a new player or beginner and are trying to make my first build and i keep wondering stuff like:

    Is my health pool too low or should i increase my resitance?
    Is my WD good compared to other DD’s?
    Is my stam reg. unnansessary high?

    ect…

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    naganje

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    Hi all,

    I’m essentially running Jeckll’s DW Stamblade setup for group dungeons but use a different second set alongside NMG. Because of changes to Sharpened and Kragh, it is no longer possible to hit the 18.2k penetration cap by running NGM, Kragh and sharpened weapons alone (assuming someone applies Major Fracture on mobs/bosses). Jeckll’s original dungeon setup now only gives 14817 penetration.

    Spoiler: Details of changes resulting in loss of penetration

    Jeckll’s original formula was as follows:

    Penetration in Group: 100 [Base] + 5160 [Sharpened] + 5280 [Major Fracture] + 2618 [CP] + 2580 [NMG] + 1935 [Kra’gh] = 17673

    Since the guide was written for Morrowind, this formula is no longer correct because of two changes:

    • Sharpened – with HotR sharpened was nerfed from 5160 to 2752; and
    • Kragh – not sure when this happened, but it seems Kragh now only adds 1487 penetration.

    The combined penetration loss from these two changes is 2856 (2408 [Sharpened] + 448 [Kragh]). Conversely, total penetration from the setup is 14817.

    The logic behind the build, or at the very least the dungeon setup, seems to have been to get as close to the penetration cap as possible without going over it. As 2856 penetration is a lot to make up for, the best way I’m aware of to do this is by wearing a second penetration boosting or resistance reducing set (Spriggan’s Thorns, Sunderflame, Twice Fanged Serpent). Because the it benefits the group at large, Sunderflame seems to be the better choice. In principle, it also fits the build given the reliance on heavy attacks for stamina regen. I came up with two ways to get near the cap running both NGM and Sunderflame. Both also account for Master and Maelstrom weapons being converted to sets in Clockwork City (see below for details).

    Spoiler: Option 1: NGM + Sunderflame + Kragh

    This is the simple solution of adding Sunderflame as the second set while retaining all the penetration from the original setup. The conversion of the ability boost of Master and Maelstrom weapons from enchants to set traits means we have a spare weapon enchantment. There’s no need to go for Glyph of Crushing since we already have 18177 penetration.

    Penetration in Group: 100 [Base] + 2752 [Sharpened] + 5280 [Major Fracture] + 2618 [CP] + 2580 [NMG] + 1487 [Kra’gh] + 3360 [Sunderflame] = 18177.

    The natural choice would be to go for Glyph of Weapon Damage. However, this does not benefit aoe abilities like Endless Hail or Caltrops since these scale with the active bar, which for most of the time will be the dual-wield bar. It can benefit Poison Injection and Caltrops since, as explained in Jeckll’s original guide, they scale with the impact bar (the bar when the ability hits the target). However, if we swap cancel their animations as opposed to block cancelling, that’s not the case. In other words, depending on our bar swapping proficiency, we might not benefit from the additional glyph on our bow bar.

    Spoiler: Option 1: NGM + Sunderflame + Crusher Bow Enchant

    In this solution we’re taking advantage of the additional bow enchantment resulting from the changes to Master and Maelstrom weapons in Clockwork City to get additional penetration. However, this puts the build over the 18.2k cap.

    Penetration in Group: 100 [Base] + 2752 [Sharpened] + 5280 [Major Fracture] + 2618 [CP] + 2580 [NMG] + 1622 [Crusher] + 3360 [Sunderflame] = 18312.

    An additional disadvantage of running Glyph of Crushing on the bow is that it won’t be active all the time. Not only is it an enchant proc, it needs refreshing every 5 seconds and none of the skills applied from the bow bar need refreshing that often. However, unlike Kragh it benefits the entire group since it is a resistance debuff on the target rather than a penetration buff on our character. Also, we get to tinker with different monster sets, like Selene’s for that extra single-target damage boost.

    I’ve been running the first option for several days now having swapped from Hunding’s Rage + NMG. Essentially, I swapped crit for penetration. I don’t have enough combat statistics yet to make an accurate judgment, but it seems to me that my damage has not really changed. I should probably get on a training dummy to check that. However, my DPS contribution when running in my regular group seems to have gone down. I’m assuming this is due to everyone dashing out more damage because of the Sunderflame debuff. This leads me to the following two simple questions:

    1) Is stacking penetration still the best way to scale damage?
    2) Even if it isn’t and assuming no one else chips in resistance debuffs, does it still make sense to run Sunderflame because of its group-wide benefits?

    Thanks and sorry for writing too much. I thought it made sense to explain where I was coming from.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by Profile photo of naganje naganje.
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    Latin

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    Jkleven said on January 15, 2018 :

    What i mean is that a stam DD should have roughly 18k health no matter if it is a bosmer or orc.

    Yes, you are right – regarding health, definitely. But it becomes problematic when you start setting a benchmark for stamina, weapon damage and etc., because of the differences between setups, classes and races.

    Jkleven said on January 15, 2018 :

    What I’m looking for is that I consider myself a new player or beginner and are trying to make my first build and i keep wondering stuff like:

    Is my health pool too low or should i increase my resitance?
    Is my WD good compared to other DD’s?
    Is my stam reg. unnansessary high?

    ect…

    They are excellent questions for an essential part of theorycrafting and build testing. The kind of answers to those questions usually depend on a wide range of factors.

    If you are doing fine with say, 16k health, then perhaps it isn’t too low. If you are finding it difficult to survive, it may not necessarily be due to low health; you may not be dealing with the mechanics well enough, or it could be inadequacy in group coordination – you may be doing well, but healer may not be focused on what is happening around you, or that the group is attempting to out-dps certain enrage mechanics.

    The typical 16-18k window for DPS isn’t really devised to avoid 1-shots. It is actually just the size of the typical health pool of max CP players using blue bi-stat or purple max stat+regen food, with 0 point in health attribute, Undaunted Mettle II and possibly Juggernaut II, with typical DPS sets. It’s just that having more health means you can take more of the small hits, from trash fights, from adds, from environmental damage (like lava in CoA2), which are sometimes unavoidable; but surviving them still require group coordination and understanding. 1-shots are more to do with not negotiating mechanics optimally, and so they are fatal regardless of whether you have 18k or 28k health.

    In PvE, tank is really the only role where you would intentionally plan your gearing to avoid getting 1-shot after block and other mitigation. Even then, you won’t know for certain how much is enough without doing the content and testing first – play it safe first then scale it back once you note the frequency and magnitude of the damage, as well as the general dungeon/trial mechanics.

    Now, of course, beginners will not do the same level of damage as max CP players. Then the question we have to ask is whether 18k health (or thereabout) is sufficient for cases of prolonged fights. Will you take more damage, run into sustain problems and further damaging your dps, react slower to mechanics, stand in the wrong spots and have to run around more? This will inevitably vary from one to another. You may be better than the majority, and in which case 18k works very well. But you really cannot tell a priori; you have to run the content a few times to find the balance between damage potential and survivability.

     

    Weapon damage varies from one setup to another. You could be wearing group-damage enabling sets like Sunderflame or NMG, and your sheet damage (and possibly effective dps) will appear lower than others in your group, but you empower the rest of the stam DPS (and thus the group) by wearing the sets. Even if you discount this, if you have a smoother rotation or execute your rotation more consistently than your group members, that may result in a higher dps even if your sheet damage is lower.

     

    A reference chart will carry a lot of assumptions, little justification and usually, overtly simplified, which is why I am not convinced that it will be a very robust solution to help beginners learn about the game mechanics and how to devise and refine their builds.

    I recall that you used the Build Editor on UESP for one of your PvP queries a few days ago – that is an excellent resource to see how the stats are being calculated from different sources. You can also view other players’ builds, with a range of CP and levels, you may be able to note how others setup their characters and the stats that they aim for. From this, their skills and set choices, you will also be able to infer their build objectives, giving you additional insight into how they are being used in-game.

    e pluribus unum

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