[PvE 3.x] Flim Flamed – The Salty version of a Magicka DK [vHoF approved]

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    pretzl

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Vezuls said on February 16, 2017 :

    True. Plus as a melee in VmoL HM, there are few times you actually need harness.

    Also, it’s strange that only 40/100 get the proc…. Could it be because since the bosses are concussed 100% of the time, each tick of blockade resets it off balance, and if you hit flame lash in the moment the off balance resets, it won’t register the off balance on flame lash, but still give the bonus from the exploiter passive?

    All,

    Our group went inthe other night and did some testing around off balance on some dungeon bosses (specifically slimecraw for ease of viewing).

    We noted the following:
    1. Once off balance procs, its up for 4 seconds.

    2. Regardless of damage delivered and by whom, off-balance remains active (white spinning lines around head)

    3. Blockade was not ‘resetting’ the off balance as we had the same person applying lightning wall and about every 5 to 6 seconds (only 2 sorcs present) off balance would proc for 4

    We will do a bit more testing tonight, but it appears to be one of two things…
    1. Flame Lash is a target based proc (highly unlikely, BUT would make sense from a PVP point of view…).
    2. Also remember the issue with other dk skills ‘stacking improperly’ on targets…
    3. Flame Lash actually consumes the off balance. When we did our testing, we had a tank, 2 sorcs and a plar. We need to add in a dk to test lash (as we were solely focused on off balance and not lash).

    To me, the most likely answer to this is #2.

    I will have more stuff to feed back after tonight. But I can say this, in a warrior fight last night, with one dk in the group, my dk reported that his lash was up for full roto’s on several of them. Meaning, that with only one dk, it was almost always up for him.

    Your testing is very much appreciated! From what I hear, this is what other Hodor mDKs are finding aswell.

    The 3rd point in your 2nd list is very intriguing though. It would make sense, but it wouldn’t hurt uptime since Off-Balance is literally procced all the time. It shouldn’t be a problem.

    As far as if Power Lash is considered a non-stackable proc, that’s a whole other story. For the time being, I think it’s only beneficial for one person to run it. Just tried myself with 1 tank, 3 mDKs and it felt like Flame Lash uptime was pretty shitty for all 3 of us. I’d keep getting the proc but wasn’t able to pop it properly most of the time. It seems to be an extremely weird proc…

    Characters | pretzL (Magicka NB) , Brannbil (Stamina Templar) , Spicy pretzL (Magicka DK) Campingbil (Magicka Sorc)

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    sargentwilko51

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    What we found interesting was our healer reporting a constant stream of off balance indicators in single target fights (serpent and warrior).  For a ‘stream’ of them to be showing, it would indicate to me that the off balance is being removed somehow…  However, when we tested without a DK, it was never removed.

    I really am leaning on the fact that either the skill won’t stack (noxious, embers, engulfing, etc), or, since flame lash is the only skill that I know of that relies on a status effect such as off balance to proc a different skill, that it consumes that status effect.

    I will have that answer tonight after some further testing (I hope), but i 100% agree.  If you are gonna run flame lash, only 1 dk should run it..

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    pretzl

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    What we found interesting was our healer reporting a constant stream of off balance indicators in single target fights (serpent and warrior). For a ‘stream’ of them to be showing, it would indicate to me that the off balance is being removed somehow… However, when we tested without a DK, it was never removed.

    I really am leaning on the fact that either the skill won’t stack (noxious, embers, engulfing, etc), or, since flamelash is the only skill that I know of that relies on a status effect such as off balance to proc a different skill, that it consumes that status effect.

    I will have that answer tonight after some further testing (I hope), but i 100% agree. If you are gonna run flame lash, only 1 dk should run it..

    Well, it makes sense that Off Balance is only a 4-5s proc and that each tick of Lightning Wall would refresh it in one way or another. As you say, either it is being refreshed constantly or Flame Lash consumes it where the latter is the most likely one if the debuff isn’t constantly refreshed without a DK running Flame Lash. Either way, one Flame Lash won’t hurt the uptime given it’s already been confirmed that the debuff is refreshed just as fast as it would be consumed. 2 DKs will most likely influence either the debuff or each other either way.

    Characters | pretzL (Magicka NB) , Brannbil (Stamina Templar) , Spicy pretzL (Magicka DK) Campingbil (Magicka Sorc)

    Guilds | HODOR & Who Pulled

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    sargentwilko51

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    Yeah man.  Ill try to grab a video of the testing tonight for sure.  I know that when we did the testing without a dk, the off balance wasn’t re-proccing in the 4 second window.  It just stayed up.

    Ill record some of it and post it here later…  on console so dont hate it…  :)

    GM of Rough Nightwood
    PS4 NA End Game Guild

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    Nosferatuzod

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Vezuls said on February 16, 2017 :

    True. Plus as a melee in VmoL HM, there are few times you actually need harness.

    Also, it’s strange that only 40/100 get the proc…. Could it be because since the bosses are concussed 100% of the time, each tick of blockade resets it off balance, and if you hit flame lash in the moment the off balance resets, it won’t register the off balance on flame lash, but still give the bonus from the exploiter passive?

    All,

    Our group went inthe other night and did some testing around off balance on some dungeon bosses (specifically slimecraw for ease of viewing).

    We noted the following:
    1. Once off balance procs, its up for 4 seconds.

    2. Regardless of damage delivered and by whom, off-balance remains active (white spinning lines around head)

    3. Blockade was not ‘resetting’ the off balance as we had the same person applying lightning wall and about every 5 to 6 seconds (only 2 sorcs present) off balance would proc for 4

    We will do a bit more testing tonight, but it appears to be one of two things…
    1. Flame Lash is a target based proc (highly unlikely, BUT would make sense from a PVP point of view…).
    2. Also remember the issue with other dk skills ‘stacking improperly’ on targets…
    3. Flame Lash actually consumes the off balance. When we did our testing, we had a tank, 2 sorcs and a plar. We need to add in a dk to test lash (as we were solely focused on off balance and not lash).

    To me, the most likely answer to this is #2.

    I will have more stuff to feed back after tonight. But I can say this, in a warrior fight last night, with one dk in the group, my dk reported that his lash was up for full roto’s on several of them. Meaning, that with only one dk, it was almost always up for him.

    I can definitely believe that

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    pretzl

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Yeah man. Ill try to grab a video of the testing tonight for sure. I know that when we did the testing without a dk, the off balance wasn’t re-proccing in the 4 second window. It just stayed up.

    Ill record some of it and post it here later… on console so dont hate it…

    Ahh, okay. Yeah, post it here! I’d really like to see it properly without a ton of addons blocking it until I get the time to sit down for a few hours and just test, test, test.

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    sargentwilko51

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    Do any of the add ons take advantage of the new stuff in the API that allows you to see uptimes on debuffs on bosses?

    Meaning, is it possible in PC parses to see minor vulnerability uptimes?  Concussed uptimes?  ele drain uptimes?

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    pretzl

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Do any of the add ons take advantage of the new stuff in the API that allows you to see uptimes on debuffs on bosses?

    Meaning, is it possible in PC parses to see minor vulnerability uptimes? Concussed uptimes? ele drain uptimes?

    Ele drain yes, the rest not effectively. There are ways to somewhat assume uptimes, but it’s untrustable and usually incorrect with a few percent. API is beyond fucked right now so not alot can be done currently. Waiting until next week to see if APIs will be fixed then.

    Characters | pretzL (Magicka NB) , Brannbil (Stamina Templar) , Spicy pretzL (Magicka DK) Campingbil (Magicka Sorc)

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    Nosferatuzod

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Do any of the add ons take advantage of the new stuff in the API that allows you to see uptimes on debuffs on bosses?

    Meaning, is it possible in PC parses to see minor vulnerability uptimes? Concussed uptimes? ele drain uptimes?

    Yes, all 3

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    sargentwilko51

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    pretzl said on February 17, 2017 :

    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Do any of the add ons take advantage of the new stuff in the API that allows you to see uptimes on debuffs on bosses?

    Meaning, is it possible in PC parses to see minor vulnerability uptimes? Concussed uptimes? ele drain uptimes?

    Ele drain yes, the rest not effectively. There are ways to somewhat assume uptimes, but it’s untrustable and usually incorrect with a few percent. API is beyond fucked right now so not alot can be done currently. Waiting until next week to see if APIs will be fixed then.

    Ok.  Reason I ask is that our healers (the ones applying the lightning wall) feel like different types of adds/bosses may be immune to concussed status effect.  Specifically the 1st boss in Hel Ra, the gargoyles in there and the atros in vAA…

     

    EDIT:  Immune isnt the right word.  They feel its harder to keep it up on them…

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    Nosferatuzod

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    pretzl said on February 17, 2017 :

    Ele drain yes, the rest not effectively. There are ways to somewhat assume uptimes, but it’s untrustable and usually incorrect with a few percent. API is beyond fucked right now so not alot can be done currently. Waiting until next week to see if APIs will be fixed then.

    Ok. Reason I ask is that our healers (the ones applying the lightning wall) feel like different types of adds/bosses may be immune to concussed status effect. Specifically the 1st boss in Hel Ra, the gargoyles in there and the atros in vAA…

    EDIT: Immune isnt the right word. They feel its harder to keep it up on them…

    Atros are resistant.

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    sargentwilko51

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    Nosferatuzod said on February 17, 2017 :

    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Ok. Reason I ask is that our healers (the ones applying the lightning wall) feel like different types of adds/bosses may be immune to concussed status effect. Specifically the 1st boss in Hel Ra, the gargoyles in there and the atros in vAA…

    EDIT: Immune isnt the right word. They feel its harder to keep it up on them…

    Atros are resistant.

    resistant to concussed or off balance?  sorry for the extra question, but i want to make sure

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    pretzl

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Nosferatuzod said on February 17, 2017 :

    Atros are resistant.

    resistant to concussed or off balance? sorry for the extra question, but i want to make sure

    All atronachs are immune to concussion, thus first and 2nd boss AA plus adds on Mage HM as well as first boss Hel-Ra cannot be set off-balance.

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    Nosferatuzod

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    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    Nosferatuzod said on February 17, 2017 :

    Atros are resistant.

    resistant to concussed or off balance? sorry for the extra question, but i want to make sure

    What Pretz said

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    sargentwilko51

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    Nosferatuzod said on February 17, 2017 :

    sargentwilko51 said on February 17, 2017 :

    resistant to concussed or off balance? sorry for the extra question, but i want to make sure

    What Pretz said

    Thanks guys!!!  I appreciate it  :)

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    pretzl

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    Okay so I took some time to test offbalance and Flame Lash cause ESO > School amirite.

    Flame Lash definitely consumes the offbalance proc as can be seen if you have a DK running normal whip and apply offbalance, you’ll rarely get a reproc of it. If you have a DK running Flame Lash, the offbalance proc keeps showing up as part of ZOS’ own target info UI with each Power Lash. The debuff is thus consumed and has approximately 0.1s downtime. Now, this may seem like very little as offbalance can be reprocced instantly, however it’s still significant in the long-term. 0.1s downtime results in 10% downtime for 10% of the fight (thanks @AlfonsoV) making it a DPS loss for everyone else in your raid. The downtime is increased for each mDK running Flame Lash in your group so it can be potentially way higher. Additionally, given the buff is consumed the other DK(s) in your raid also running Flame Lash will decrease each other’s uptime, making it essentially useless in the end.

    TL;DR don’t use Flame Lash as of now.

    Characters | pretzL (Magicka NB) , Brannbil (Stamina Templar) , Spicy pretzL (Magicka DK) Campingbil (Magicka Sorc)

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    Nosferatuzod

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    pretzl said on February 17, 2017 :

    Okay so I took some time to test offbalance and Flame Lash cause ESO > School amirite.

    Flame Lash definitely consumes the offbalance proc as can be seen if you have a DK running normal whip and apply offbalance, you’ll rarely get a reproc of it. If you have a DK running Flame Lash, the offbalance proc keeps showing up as part of ZOS’ own target info UI with each Power Lash. The debuff is thus consumed and has approximately 0.1s downtime. Now, this may seem like very little as offbalance can be reprocced instantly, however it’s still significant in the long-term. 0.1s downtime results in 10% downtime for 10% of the fight (thanks @AlfonsoV) making it a DPS loss for everyone else in your raid. The downtime is increased for each mDK running Flame Lash in your group so it can be potentially way higher. Additionally, given the buff is consumed the other DK(s) in your raid also running Flame Lash will decrease each other’s uptime, making it essentially useless in the end.

    TL;DR don’t use Flame Lash as of now.

    Good catch

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    pretzl

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    Nosferatuzod said on February 17, 2017 :

    pretzl said on February 17, 2017 :

    Okay so I took some time to test offbalance and Flame Lash cause ESO > School amirite.

    Flame Lash definitely consumes the offbalance proc as can be seen if you have a DK running normal whip and apply offbalance, you’ll rarely get a reproc of it. If you have a DK running Flame Lash, the offbalance proc keeps showing up as part of ZOS’ own target info UI with each Power Lash. The debuff is thus consumed and has approximately 0.1s downtime. Now, this may seem like very little as offbalance can be reprocced instantly, however it’s still significant in the long-term. 0.1s downtime results in 10% downtime for 10% of the fight (thanks @AlfonsoV) making it a DPS loss for everyone else in your raid. The downtime is increased for each mDK running Flame Lash in your group so it can be potentially way higher. Additionally, given the buff is consumed the other DK(s) in your raid also running Flame Lash will decrease each other’s uptime, making it essentially useless in the end.

    TL;DR don’t use Flame Lash as of now.

    Good catch

    Well, it’s worth reporting to ensure misinformation doesn’t spread. Flame Lash itself adds around 1k-1,5k DPS but how much it removes from the rest of your raid is still unclear. I can’t see it as being worth it in the end given the potential DPS loss for the rest of your raid. It’ll be too selfish.

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    Vezuls

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    pretzl said on February 17, 2017 :

    Okay so I took some time to test offbalance and Flame Lash cause ESO > School amirite.

    Flame Lash definitely consumes the offbalance proc as can be seen if you have a DK running normal whip and apply offbalance, you’ll rarely get a reproc of it. If you have a DK running Flame Lash, the offbalance proc keeps showing up as part of ZOS’ own target info UI with each Power Lash. The debuff is thus consumed and has approximately 0.1s downtime. Now, this may seem like very little as offbalance can be reprocced instantly, however it’s still significant in the long-term. 0.1s downtime results in 10% downtime for 10% of the fight (thanks @AlfonsoV) making it a DPS loss for everyone else in your raid. The downtime is increased for each mDK running Flame Lash in your group so it can be potentially way higher. Additionally, given the buff is consumed the other DK(s) in your raid also running Flame Lash will decrease each other’s uptime, making it essentially useless in the end.

    TL;DR don’t use Flame Lash as of now.

    Saying it like “Off Balance will not be up 10% of the fight” makes it seem like a big deal, but let’s put that into statistical perspective.

    Each action you do has a global cooldown of 1 second. This means that most of the time off balance is “down” it won’t matter because it will be during the void where no action can/will take place due to the way globals work. It’s better to say “You have a 10% chance of hitting the boss while it is not off balanced.” That also is an inflated statistic however, as it seems huge, but in the grand scheme of things is a what if scenario. DK’s also don’t spam whips.

    Now, I will put that into a statistical perspective that is not inflated.

    In your rotation for instance, you use 9 whips every 20ish seconds. So, in 20 seconds, you will use Flame Lash 9 times. There will be 9 times where off balance will reproc. This means that 9 times every 20 seconds, there will be a 10% chance that DoTs or a main spammable will not benefit from off balance proc. There will be (9 whips * 10% chance that actions for other players will occur one time during the same interval that off balance is on “Cooldown”) 90% chance every 20 seconds that for ONE second any abilities used (dots/spammables) will NOT benefit from off balance.

    So, even if Off Balance isn’t up 10% of the fight, what if that 10% of the fight is in the global cool down void so it doesn’t effect dps at all?

     

    I honestly don’t think it will be an issue, since everything in the game ticks every second (except endless hail and maybe a few other things that tick every .5 second). To determine whether Flame Lash is worth using or not, numerous (and I mean numerous) tests will have to be conducted using flame lash on some, and using molten whip on the other, with other classes dpsing the same target, preferably only using main spamming spammable skills for consistency sake.

     

    Sorry if this reply is long winded and I can not convey my point. I will try to clarify what I mean if there’s trouble understanding.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by Profile photo of Vezuls Vezuls.
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    pretzl

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    Vezuls said on February 17, 2017 :

    pretzl said on February 17, 2017 :

    Okay so I took some time to test offbalance and Flame Lash cause ESO > School amirite.

    Flame Lash definitely consumes the offbalance proc as can be seen if you have a DK running normal whip and apply offbalance, you’ll rarely get a reproc of it. If you have a DK running Flame Lash, the offbalance proc keeps showing up as part of ZOS’ own target info UI with each Power Lash. The debuff is thus consumed and has approximately 0.1s downtime. Now, this may seem like very little as offbalance can be reprocced instantly, however it’s still significant in the long-term. 0.1s downtime results in 10% downtime for 10% of the fight (thanks @AlfonsoV) making it a DPS loss for everyone else in your raid. The downtime is increased for each mDK running Flame Lash in your group so it can be potentially way higher. Additionally, given the buff is consumed the other DK(s) in your raid also running Flame Lash will decrease each other’s uptime, making it essentially useless in the end.

    TL;DR don’t use Flame Lash as of now.

    Saying it like “Off Balance will not be up 10% of the fight” makes it seem like a big deal, but let’s put that into statistical perspective.

    Each action you do has a global cooldown of 1 second. This means that most of the time off balance is “down” it won’t matter because it will be during the void where no action can/will take place due to the way globals work. It’s better to say “You have a 10% chance of hitting the boss while it is not off balanced.” That also is an inflated statistic however, as it seems huge, but in the grand scheme of things is a what if scenario. DK’s also don’t spam whips.

    Now, I will put that into a statistical perspective that is not inflated.

    In your rotation for instance, you use 9 whips every 20ish seconds. So, in 20 seconds, you will use Flame Lash 9 times. There will be 9 times where off balance will reproc. This means that 9 times every 20 seconds, there will be a 10% chance that DoTs or a main spammable will not benefit from off balance proc. There will be (9 whips * 10% chance that actions for other players will occur one time during the same interval that off balance is on “Cooldown”) 90% chance every 20 seconds that for ONE second any abilities used (dots/spammables) will NOT benefit from off balance.

    So, even if Off Balance isn’t up 10% of the fight, what if that 10% of the fight is in the global cool down void so it doesn’t effect dps at all?

    I honestly don’t think it will be an issue, since everything in the game ticks every second (except endless hail and maybe a few other things that tick every .5 second). To determine whether Flame Lash is worth using or not, numerous (and I mean numerous) tests will have to be conducted using flame lash on some, and using molten whip on the other, with other classes dpsing the same target, preferably only using main spamming spammable skills for consistency sake.

    Sorry if this reply is long winded and I can not convey my point. I will try to clarify what I mean if there’s trouble understanding.

    Nah, I think I understand it, but feel free to correct me if you feel I don’t, and it is something I was considering more or less in the same sense with some deviations you’ve thought of that I hadn’t.

    However, even with this in mind; what if that 10% of the fight isn’t in the global cooldown void for say, for examples sake, 4 players. That’s 4 players loosing what you should consider significant DPS. This chance is additive for each mDK running Flame Lash, making it an even higher chance. It’s an inflated statistic, yes, but nevertheless a realistic one – and one that cannot be properly tested. Those 10% I mentioned were for reference’s sake. In reality, it might very well be slightly less, but nevertheless around the same percentage. Thousands of tests will need to be made with a full 12man raid doing nearly the exact same things in order to properly weigh in on how big of a change in DPS it will be if, and when, Flame Lash consumes Off-Balance and yourself or other players fall into the void of global cooldowns.

    It just makes for an incredibly selfish skill that really only benefits yourself ever so slightly. 1k-1.5k added DPS just isn’t worth it given all that needs to be considered. The question of if Flame Lash is benefitial is so deep and requires such extensive testing that, in my opinion, it’s just not worth it to even run it. Granted, one player in a raid can run it and it may very well still be beneficial to that one person, but what happens if/when it starts fucking other players’ DPS?

    Members of Wildfire as well as Ice will test it properly in a raid setting over the coming weeks, but as of now I’m not supporting it and even going as far as to throw Flame Lash out of the window for PvE purposes.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by Profile photo of pretzl pretzl.

    Characters | pretzL (Magicka NB) , Brannbil (Stamina Templar) , Spicy pretzL (Magicka DK) Campingbil (Magicka Sorc)

    Guilds | HODOR & Who Pulled

    Magicka DK Build | Kindling Power

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