[PTS 2.6] Sorcerer arithmagic

  1. Member Avatar
    TarmoRhox

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 60

    Altmer Sorcerer

    I’ve watched recently a vMA run with mag-nightblade (xDRUMnBASSx) and I’ve noticed that he uses Precise MA staff rather than Sharpened. When I asked in chat why so, I was answered that Sharpened version has some bug which causes that trait not to work. Is that really true? And if yes, is MA precise version better than just crafted nirn-staff?

    Btw, I’m not a mag NB, I’m mag sorc. Just started to farm that staff recently and I would be very upset if it is not worth it.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Profile photo of TarmoRhox TarmoRhox.
  2. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    TarmoRhox said on February 18, 2016 :

    I’ve watched recently a vMA run with mag-nightblade (xDRUMnBASSx) and I’ve noticed that he uses Precise MA staff rather than Sharpened. When I asked in chat why so, I was answered that Sharpened version has some bug which causes that trait not to work. Is that really true? And if yes, is MA precise version better than just crafted nirn-staff?

    Btw, I’m not a mag NB, I’m mag sorc. Just started to farm that staff recently and I would be very upset if it is not worth it.

    TarmoRhox said on February 18, 2016 :

    I’ve watched recently a vMA run with mag-nightblade (xDRUMnBASSx) and I’ve noticed that he uses Precise MA staff rather than Sharpened. When I asked in chat why so, I was answered that Sharpened version has some bug which causes that trait not to work. Is that really true? And if yes, is MA precise version better than just crafted nirn-staff?

    Btw, I’m not a mag NB, I’m mag sorc. Just started to farm that staff recently and I would be very upset if it is not worth it.

    I’ve not encountered any bugs with the Sharpened trait since the IC DLC.

  3. Member Avatar
    MrTarkanian48

    Novice

    Total Posts: 14

    Hey Asayre,

    I know you run a Sorc so you may not have done much testing, but was wondering if you knew the following about werewolf:

    1) Transforming to werewolf gives a max stamina bonus. (1 source I read said 18%, another said 20%)  Do you know what this percentage increase is? And if so, do you know when it is applied in the stats equation? I’m assuming it is considered “skills” and would stack additively with the Redguard 10% max racial passive?

    2) It also provides 18% Weapon Damage.  I would assume this is applied at the same time as the Medium armor “agility” passive and stack additively for 30% Weapon damage?

  4. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    Hey, werewolf gives 30% to max stamina bonus and goes under skills. It stacks additively with the Reguard passive and Undaunted Mettle. I can’t answer your second question as I did not notice a change in weapon damage on transforming to a werewolf but that may be because I have the unmorphed ultimate, Werewolf Transformation.

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    kasiir

    Adept

    Total Posts: 159

    Breton Templar

    what’s the base magicka for the mage mundus? if one was to optimize purely for max magicka (for wahtever reason), infused on larges pieces is preferable, i guess. However, what about infused vs divines on small pieces when using the mage mundus?

     

    AD/EU | Member of Lux Dei

    Kasiia – Templar (magicka)
    Kasiir Aberion – Sorc (on hold)
    Kas – DK (PvE)
    Kasiier – Templar (stamina, PvE)

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    xBlackroxe

    Master

    Total Posts: 706

    Dunmer Nightblade

    kasiir said on February 19, 2016 :

    what’s the base magicka for the mage mundus? if one was to optimize purely for max magicka (for wahtever reason), infused on larges pieces is preferable, i guess. However, what about infused vs divines on small pieces when using the mage mundus?

    found in the first spoiler. i think its 1320 without divines.

     

    Chars: -Blackroxe (Dunmer Sorcerer)

    Scores (One Tamriel): vDSA 47.683, vMOL 163.308, vSO 171.353, vHRC 154.149

    Guild: HODOR

  7. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    Yup 1320 at V16. Probably use infused on large pieces (head, legs, chest, shield) and divines on everything else.

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    mrowmrif2

    Moderator

    Total Posts: 4611

    Khajiit Nightblade

    Finally got around to moving thread to game mechanics and stickied :)

  9. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    Thank you for the move to the Mechanics forum.

    While I am aware that there is a certain distrust of tooltip values, I believe that for the most part they are quite useful. Thus I have compiled a list of skill coefficients for the PTS 2.3.2. A huge thank you to @coolmodi for making an addon to save skill tooltips to SavedVariables. The layout was inspired by a document called ESO Coefficient 1.6.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YN8YWDpi1-d4CfoagRy1F9ath2w2nb-TniL4MjdJdz4/edit?usp=sharing

    I’ve made a few sparse notes on some skills such as Power Overload still doing less damage than expected. I’ll gradually add more notes to the spreadsheet as I recall/encounter them. A link has also been added to the section Ability Tooltip Value.

  10. Member Avatar
    Smajestic

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 86

    @Asayre thx for your  great job.

     

    I have a question I  have tried to  calculated, but  it’s too difficult for me:

     

    ON PTS:

    What would be the best for the execute phase as sorcerer (20 %- 0 %):

    1) 2 torug sword (with passif bonus) and  spamming: mages’ wrath without light attack

    2) maelstrom lignthing staff: with elemental blockade + light attack (with bonus of maelstrom staff) and mages’wrath (+ proc of molag kena) ?

     

    second question: if I have good understood, the passif bonus of dual wield is useless on the overload bar, so normally the bonus of 1 maelstrom staff or 2 torug sword on dual would be the  same on the overload bar. So if I understand correctly, without 2 torug sword, we lost dps bonus (dual wield passif) in the whole fight for liquid lighting (normally on the second bar) or for elemental blockade,  except when a sorcerer use overload bar. So my second technical question, is this lost of DPS in the whole fight compensated with  the bonus of the second hypothesis (maelstrom staff: elemental blockage, LA+ mages’wrath in execute  phase ?).

     

    sorry for my english, it’s not  my mother’language

     

     

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Profile photo of Smajestic Smajestic.
  11. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    Hey @smajestic,

    So I tried your two execution rotations and these are the rough timings

    1. DW: MWx10                                  Time: 10s

    2. Staff: LA – EB – LA – (MW – LA) x6    Time:  8s

    Abbreviation: LA – light attack, EB – Elemental Blockade, MW – Mage’s Wrath. You can repeat these rotations by yourself to get more accurate timings. For my calculations I’m ignoring CP distribution but the increase magicka due to CP is accounted for. I don’t have a source of Major Sorcery active. I have accounted for Twin Blade and Blunt but not Energized since Energized applies to everything we can just ignore it for simplicity. I am assuming 100% uptime on Molag Kena on the staff as it is refreshed every elemental blockade. Here is an overview of my calculations

    It seems that the staff rotation is significantly better. Please check your rotation timings and compare them to mine and your ability damages and stuff. You can use the skill coefficient spreadsheet to get good estimates of ability tooltips.

    With regards to your second question, yes Twin Blade and Blunt is not applied in the overload bar. But dual wielding gives you more base spell damage. If you are using Torug’s sword your liquid lightning is only ever so slightly better since once you swap to your staff bar for force pulse weaving your liquid lightning damage is recalculated to your current spell damage so you only get increased damage for like 1s before you bar swap. I don’t think I can answer your question of whether the back bar should be swapped for a staff instead yet. It depends on how long your mages wrath execute phase is and how much overload you have stored.

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    Smajestic

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 86

    thx for your test, i will try to test on my side, if I “see” well your first result: staff is much bether (more than 10%), but this difference could be just have the explanation of the proc of kena.

    If we proc molag kena with a LA on dualwield, probably it’s almost the same amount of damage, but without the difficulty of refreshing everytime the EB with the staff.

     

    the main difference is probably the proc of molag kena, so maybe i need to thing about the proc of kena with a LA on dual wield too, but in this case the sorcerer need to be close to the boss, so probably on different boss, sorcerer need to use different tactic.

    With a movement combat and a long execute phase, EB / LA / MW is bether, with a non-movement boss, dualwield is probably more simple and bether.

  13. Member Avatar
    MrTarkanian48

    Novice

    Total Posts: 14

    Asayre said on February 18, 2016 :

    Hey, werewolf gives 30% to max stamina bonus and goes under skills. It stacks additively with the Reguard passive and Undaunted Mettle. I can’t answer your second question as I did not notice a change in weapon damage on transforming to a werewolf but that may be because I have the unmorphed ultimate, Werewolf Transformation.

    Thanks! Wow, I didn’t know it was 30%.  In regards to weapon damage, WW has a passive “Savage Strength” which states 18% increase to Weapon damage with two skill points invested.

    On my Vet 6 Stam Sorc (5 piece medium armor w/ agility passives) my Weapon damage was 1875 with Major Brutality active. When transformed my weapon damage went to 2053 with Major Brutality (approximately 9.5% increase).

    I guess I was just wondering how the calculation would work since it didn’t seem like I was getting a full 18%, plus I was wondering if the 18% (and 12% from medium armor for that matter) would apply to the damage from Molag Kena procs.  I am using the Thief Mundus.  DW with 5 piece Hundings, 4 Piece Night Mothers Gaze, and should have 12% bonus from Medium armor passives, and then the 18% when transformed into WW.

  14. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    My werewolf is only level 1 both on Live and PTS and I never levelled it so I never knew about the weapon damage passive! I can’t tell from the data you provided me whether or not it is additive with Major Brutality and the Agility passive. In most cases, weapon damage is calculated as

    where Skills is typically the sum of bonuses so if you Major Brutality and Agility passive Skills will be 1.32. If I divided 1875 by 1.32 to determine the pre-skill multiplier value of your weapon damage it would be 1420. Assuming the 18% is additive would make skills 1.5. But 1420*1.5 = 2130. Perhaps you could list the tooltip values of your gear and the weapon damage bonus from Hundings and Night Mothers Gaze at V6 to see if I missed a skill calculation?

  15. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    After some thinking, I’ve decided to rewrite the Mage CP distribution to make the equation a bit more accessible with the loss of a tiny amount of accuracy. I’ve included a spreadsheet that will do this

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zp9v1Vp4Z7X6zfDfcxTwyAnejv-tEC5LujbXYBiVMDk/edit?usp=sharing

    On the first sheet you’ll see a range of inputs including

    • Number of Champion Points
    • Critical Chance
    • Critical Modifier
      • Defined as Critical Damage/Non-Critical Damage – 1
    • Target Resistance
    • Target Level
    • Percentage Penetration
    • Flat Penetration
    • Elemental Ratio
    • DoT Ratio
    • Staff Ratio

    It will output the ideal CP distribution in Elemental Expert, Thaumathurge, Staff Expert, Elfborn and Spell Erosion. It does not take into account the Elfborn jump points in the calculation so if it suggest a non-Elfborn jump point it will also display the nearest Elfborn jump points. Also all CP passives are ignored. This means that there may be situations where it will not recommend putting 30 points into the Apprentice first. The error from using this method compared to the enumerating all possibilities appear to be around <0.1% from a few situations I checked.

    How it works?
    It starts by assuming you have 0 in all 5 CP stars. It then calculates the following function

    for an increase of 1 point in each star. It selects the optimum distribution then keeps going until it reaches your stated number of Champion Points. I had to use a continuous equation to model how the CP stars vary with points spent. The equation used can be seen in Sheet 3. Because a continuous equation was used some deviation from my previous discrete optimisation will be present. In addition, I could not include the impact of Elfborn jump points thus jump points are suggested at the end of the optimisation. While the previous discrete optimisation is probably better to model the jump points, I hope that this method of presenting the ideal mage CP distribution for magicka builds will be easier to use thus increasing it’s accuracy as you can put in your own relevant values instead of looking for the closest table match.

    Edit: Made a small change to the spreadsheet to only recommended Elfborn jump points

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Profile photo of Asayre Asayre.
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    toboliam

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 7

    Hey Asayre, thank you for all of your work so far, it has been super helpful, especially for those of us on console who are limited in the ways that we can test.

    I was reading your TBS and Julianos comparison and was wondering what you think about the optimal set up for a Magicka NB in the TG update.

    Next patch I will likely have the following distribution of Mage points (determined using the chart you posted): 100 Elemental Expert, 46 Elfborn, 12 Theurmateuge , 1 Staff Expert, 8 spell erosion. Furthermore the Nightblade Hemorrage passive grants 10% critical damage. My race is dark elf for the additional damage on meteor, wall of elements, and my inferno weave. Furthermore I wasn’t sure if a precise MA staff or sharpened MA staff would be better for mobs between 10-15K resistance with this new CP distribution and using twice born with the thief and shadow. I figured a Warhorn rotation as well could change what is better, precise or sharpened.

    So to summarize: would TBS (all divines) with the shadow and the thief be superior on a Magicka NB due to the additional critical damage in the TG update? And with the new CP distribution, would you recommend precise or sharpened on most enemies (between 10-15K resistance). Currently I am using the typical set up of: 5 Julanios, a sharpened MA staff, 2 Kena, 3 willpower.

    Thank you for your awesome work and guidance!

  17. Member Avatar
    kwin

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 56

    Hello,
    First again thanks for this huge contribution to the community with such a complete explanation of the game mechanic.
    However as a PS4 user I live in a blind world and I can figure out some other damage calculation mechanic:

    Regarding damage calculation and bar swap: how the tick damage is evaluated by the game:
    which CC, weapon damage and penetration is used in the damage calculation?

    I figured out from alcast video that CC used is the one from the active bar when the tick occur, but what about penetration: is it the same?
    this might help me to determine which BiS trait for my build for instance for my maelstrom bow (that I use only for arrow barrage+caltrops in therm of offensive skill)
    I have 1 in def and 1 in sharp…
    but if the arrow barrage tick penetration is calculated from my DW bar 90% of the time it might be more usefull to use the one in def trait because overall it will be more usefull when I am in a defensive mode trying to resist to the pressure (escape/blocking+vigor), considering that when I am in offensive mode I will be on my DW bar 99% of the time…

  18. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    @toboliam, the choice between TBS and Julianos is actually a bit more complicated with the TG champion system changes. You can use the spreadsheet link in the post above yours to see my recommended champion points distribution for a range of inputs. If you are just looking for an answer, look close to the end of this post and I’ll have a conclusion. I have to think a bit about this. It’s not very straightforward.

    So I start by first estimating critical chance, base critical modifier (without any points in Elfborn) and stat pools for both Julianos and TBS.

    TBS

    Julianos

    I then put champion point calculator spreadsheet. The critical chance and base critical modifiers are different so slightly different champion point allocation are suggested. The suggested allocation is a bit different from the table you looked up earlier for a few reasons including when I made the table I made the mistake of putting a level of 66 when 50 is more suitable for PvE content, the table was made for a base critical modifier of 0.5 and the calculation method in the spreadsheet has a few simplications to make it possible. This is a picture of the inputs and output. It’s a bit messy…

    Then to compare the relative metrics for TBS and Julianos, we evaluate the product of Effective Pool and f.

    TBS – Sharpened : 80401 * 1.780512 = 143155
    TBS – Precise      : 80401 * 1.777318 = 142898
    LoJ  – Sharpened : 84168 * 1.704841 = 143493
    LoJ  – Precise      : 84168 * 1.691704 = 142387

    which mean Julianos is preferred over TBS and also Sharpened is preferred for mobs with resistance of 13k and above. From the section Precise and Nirnhoned, it is possible to formulate the following to determine the crossover mob resistance between Precise and Nirnhoned/Sharpened.

    For Julianos,

    So use precise for everything below 11100 resistance and sharpened for everything else above that value. Most bosses have a resistance above that even after Major breach. Non-boss resistance is sort of around that region so I’ll probably stick to sharpened for everything because I’m lazy at changing.

    So Julianos and Sharpened is probably what I would recommend. The calculations are not that straightforward is it…

    @kwin for the majority of DoTs the calculation is all based on your current active weapon.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Profile photo of Asayre Asayre.
  19. Member Avatar
    toboliam

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 7

    Hello Asayre,

    thank you so much for your help with this, this is indeed more complicated than I expected. I would never expect to be putting so many points into spell erosion and leaving so many out of Elfborn as well, I assume the changes they have made have fixed many of the problems it was having in providing good performance.

    I believe I will end of crafting a set of TBS for my maelstrom runs and the new trial. While I may lose out on some damage, it may be worth the extra bit of health I will receive. However, I will likely stick with Julianos for most situations where I don’t need a little extra health/stamina as well as stick with a sharpened staff. Furthermore, I could see major force and minor force coming into play and bringing twice born slightly ahead of Julianos when fully buffed in a raid group (however I am not fully sure about this).

    Thank you again, your help has been very much appreciated. I will pass this on my to my friends and guild mates as well. Let me know if you think my assessment shows any misunderstanding.

  20. Member Avatar
    CrespiSwag

    Novice

    Total Posts: 12

    Imperial Dragonknight

    Great info

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