Light VS heavy attack and weaving

  1. Member Avatar
    Symke

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 6

    I always thought light attack does less damage than heavy attack. But since I started using combat metrics, I am confused, as it appears only partially (medium) to fully charged heavy attack does more damage than light.

    I want to improve my DPS, so light/heavy weaving is one of the things I am focused on right now. First thing I noticed is that with my brain/fingers/mouse, it’s almost impossible to weave light attacks on stam NB. Especially weaving light attacks with Surprise attack. Surprisingly light weaving is much easier on my Sorc. But I digress. There are many weaving guides on the net and I just have to find the one that explains it in a way I will be able to benefit from it. Is there a guide specifically for stam NBs with all skills on mouse? :)

     

    Back to my original question … is light attack supposed to do less damage than heavy, no matter how charged heavy is?

    According to my metrics, light attack is only the one where i slightly tap my mouse button and all others are considered heavy. But metrics also shows me that many of my heavy attacks do less damage than those few light attacks I manage to do. I know most of my heavy attacks are not fully charged, as I try to be as fast as possible when weaving.

    I also noticed my light weaving gets better if I use mouse for light attacks and keyboard for other skills. Could there be some llimitation my mouse has that prevents me from weaving properly?

  2. Profile Photo
    Psiberzerker

    Legend

    Total Posts: 7873

    Orc Nightblade

    No, a Heavy Attack is fully charged, so that it returns Resources for your time investment, which is great for sustaining.  Light Attacks help your DPS by Animation Canceling.  Basically, they allow you to spam skills, and spells faster, they aren’t the bulk of your damage (And haven’t been for over a year, so you must be reading some really old guides.)

    I don’t Just weave LAs, nor Just HAs, I weave attacks of different lengths between Skills with different animations into the Rotation.  A lot of spells, like Force Pulse, for example, you can hold down the Attack button almost immediately after it starts, then let go immediately for basically a free Medium Attack, or hold out for a full heavy, in a fraction of a second later (Especially with the Destruction Master passive.  I think that’s the one that makes staff attacks charge faster, but it’s early, and I haven’t had my coffee.)  Funnel Health is a weird Animation, like Flame Whip, where the window between canceling the spell itself (No damage) and attacks with it are extremely narrow.  So, the time to react is short, and you basically need practice to make it muscle memory.  (Reaction, because if you use your eyes, and mentally count, it’s over too fast.)

    Surprise Attack is a good example of what I call a “Cheap shot.”  Basically, it doesn’t cost a lot, and the animation is faster than an Attack.  So, you can just spam it in lieu of an attack.  To cancel other animations in a Burst, but that’s difficult to sustain, so you’re basically burning up a Resource bar.  Which is fine, NBs are bursty likeat, and some fights (Like Duels) just don’t last long enough for Sustain to be an issue.  Also, you have Siphoning Attacks, which means you don’t have to fully charge Power Attacks to get your resources back, and you can use tapattacks for this.  (Sorcerers have Energy overload, which basically allow you to do the same thing, but the timing is completely different.)  Because of the burstiness of the procs from Siphoning Attacks, sometimes you get lucky, and have a lot of resources, others you roll craps, and just have the trickle from tapattacks.  So, I like to have a fast Magicka dump, like Concealed Weapon, and a wuick Stamina Dump (I use Pierce Armor, because it opens them up to Physical, AND Spell damage, like Concealed Weapon) so you’re not wasting any of this income.

    Symke said on November 16, 2016 :

    I also noticed my light weaving gets better if I use mouse for light attacks and keyboard for other skills. Could there be some llimitation my mouse has that prevents me from weaving properly?

    That’s impossible to troubleshoot from here.  Try another mouse?  I assume you have one of those MMO jobbies with all the buttons.  I don’t know the mouse, nor the keyboard, I can’t try them myself, and it could just be your reflexes.  or connection, or a lot of other things.  All of which you pretty much have to be there to test, and eliminate.  Sorry.

    Everything above is likely Opinion, and/or subject to change. 

    I mostly play ”Gofasta” Orcish berserkers in Red armor.  (Alluding to WH40K.)

  3. Profile Photo
    Matezon

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 31

    Redguard Sorcerer

    I saw in Alcast latest guide that he mentioned that “some of his friends” said that lightweaving would outdps medium weaving (becouse it was quicker), but still I havent found any maths supporting this anywhere at anytime :S

    In my “vision” i can’t see why.
    2 options as I see it
    Lightweave>skill repeat
    Skill>mediumweave repeat

    You initiate mediumweave just a millisecond after you’ve activated the skill and release it at the earliest point possible during the skill for a succesfull weave & new skill (same time as you otherwise would initiate the lightweave)
    But for some reason I must be wrong, since light weavers usually showoff better dps parses then me (aka Im a noob) :)
    And my muscle memory is to damaged from medium weaving so I got a REALLY hard time going back to lightweaving…

    Breakdown example:
    Seconds
    0,1 Start Rapid strikes
    0,1-2 Initiate medium weave
    0,9-1,1 Release mediumweave
    1.2 Start rapid strikes

    vs

    Seconds
    0,1 Light attack
    0,2 Start Rapid strikes
    0,9-1,1 Light attack
    1,2 Start Rapid strikes

    Can someone tell me why alternativ 2 would be more dps efficiant, what am I missing?!
    @asayre @jeckll @yolo-wizard

  4. Profile Photo
    Jeckll

    Grandmaster

    Total Posts: 2434

    Redguard Nightblade

    Matezon said on December 2, 2016 :

    I saw in Alcast latest guide that he mentioned that “some of his friends” said that lightweaving would outdps medium weaving (becouse it was quicker), but still I havent found any maths supporting this anywhere at anytime :S

    In my “vision” i can’t see why.
    2 options as I see it
    Lightweave>skill repeat
    Skill>mediumweave repeat

    You initiate mediumweave just a millisecond after you’ve activated the skill and release it at the earliest point possible during the skill for a succesfull weave & new skill (same time as you otherwise would initiate the lightweave)
    But for some reason I must be wrong, since light weavers usually showoff better dps parses then me (aka Im a noob)
    And my muscle memory is to damaged from medium weaving so I got a REALLY hard time going back to lightweaving…

    Breakdown example:
    Seconds
    0,1 Start Rapid strikes
    0,1-2 Initiate medium weave
    0,9-1,1 Release mediumweave
    1.2 Start rapid strikes

    vs

    Seconds
    0,1 Light attack
    0,2 Start Rapid strikes
    0,9-1,1 Light attack
    1,2 Start Rapid strikes

    Can someone tell me why alternativ 2 would be more dps efficiant, what am I missing?!
    @asayre@jeckll@yolo-wizard

    I always light weave because I basically never do 2 Rapids in a row so I never cared.

     

    Player: @Jeckll || Guild: Chimaira – Raidgroup Hydra || Server: EU

  5. Profile Photo
    Matezon

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 31

    Redguard Sorcerer

    Jeckll said on December 2, 2016 :

    Matezon said on December 2, 2016 :

    I saw in Alcast latest guide that he mentioned that “some of his friends” said that lightweaving would outdps medium weaving (becouse it was quicker), but still I havent found any maths supporting this anywhere at anytime :S

    In my “vision” i can’t see why.
    2 options as I see it
    Lightweave>skill repeat
    Skill>mediumweave repeat

    You initiate mediumweave just a millisecond after you’ve activated the skill and release it at the earliest point possible during the skill for a succesfull weave & new skill (same time as you otherwise would initiate the lightweave)
    But for some reason I must be wrong, since light weavers usually showoff better dps parses then me (aka Im a noob)
    And my muscle memory is to damaged from medium weaving so I got a REALLY hard time going back to lightweaving…

    Breakdown example:
    Seconds
    0,1 Start Rapid strikes
    0,1-2 Initiate medium weave
    0,9-1,1 Release mediumweave
    1.2 Start rapid strikes

    vs

    Seconds
    0,1 Light attack
    0,2 Start Rapid strikes
    0,9-1,1 Light attack
    1,2 Start Rapid strikes

    Can someone tell me why alternativ 2 would be more dps efficiant, what am I missing?!
    @asayre@jeckll@yolo-wizard

    I always light weave because I basically never do 2 Rapids in a row so I never cared.

    Yes but I mean your rotation could always do medium weave.
    Rapid>medium>rending>swap>trap>medium>hail>medium>poision etc?

    Im seeing here that Im missing out of some mediums becouse of swap cancel(poision, rending)) / block cancel (hail), however if I’d light before everything I’d get more amount of hits

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Profile photo of Matezon Matezon.
  6. Profile Photo
    Jeckll

    Grandmaster

    Total Posts: 2434

    Redguard Nightblade

    Matezon said on December 2, 2016 :

    Jeckll said on December 2, 2016 :

    I always light weave because I basically never do 2 Rapids in a row so I never cared.

    Yes but I mean your rotation could always do medium weave.

    Rapid>medium>rending>medium>rending>swap>trap>medium>hail>medium>poision etc?
    Im seeing here that Im missing out of some mediums becouse of swap cancel(poision, rending)) / block cancel (hail), however if I’d light before everything I’d get more amount of hits

    I think even if you could get a slight DPS increase by switching between light and medium attacks depending on the skill you are about to use, the slightest variation of your rotation would make your brain have to think about what you have to do next which would most likely be a higher DPS lost than the gain you’ll eventually get when everything works perfectly.

    Last time I compared Light with Medium Weaving was when I switched back to Rapid when MSA weapons were released. Back then, I had better results with LA weaving in pratice. Sure – maybe I suck at medium weaving so my tests were not mathematically proven. I just had better results in practice with LA Weaving.

    There is (or was?!) also a bug with Medium Weaving I found on my Mageblade, where when I press the button not long enough, 2 fireballs are visibly flying towards the target but there is no impact at all. Dont know if thats still the case or if it’s only a Staff thing but overall, I suggest LA Weaving for Stamina builds. No maths, no justification – just my experience.

    Player: @Jeckll || Guild: Chimaira – Raidgroup Hydra || Server: EU

  7. Profile Photo
    Matezon

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 31

    Redguard Sorcerer

    Jeckll said on December 2, 2016 :

    Matezon said on December 2, 2016 :

    Yes but I mean your rotation could always do medium weave.

    Rapid>medium>rending>medium>rending>swap>trap>medium>hail>medium>poision etc?
    Im seeing here that Im missing out of some mediums becouse of swap cancel(poision, rending)) / block cancel (hail), however if I’d light before everything I’d get more amount of hits

    I think even if you could get a slight DPS increase by switching between light and medium attacks depending on the skill you are about to use, the slightest variation of your rotation would make your brain have to think about what you have to do next which would most likely be a higher DPS lost than the gain you’ll eventually get when everything works perfectly.

    Last time I compared Light with Medium Weaving was when I switched back to Rapid when MSA weapons were released. Back then, I had better results with LA weaving in pratice. Sure – maybe I suck at medium weaving so my tests were not mathematically proven. I just had better results in practice with LA Weaving.

    There is (or was?!) also a bug with Medium Weaving I found on my Mageblade, where when I press the button not long enough, 2 fireballs are visibly flying towards the target but there is no impact at all. Dont know if thats still the case or if it’s only a Staff thing but overall, I suggest LA Weaving for Stamina builds. No maths, no justification – just my experience.

    Yepp, I think case closed for this time :)

  8. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    I only LA weave these days because my experience with medium attack weaving is similar to Jeckll. I found that if I charge an attack for somewhere between ~220-~250 ms, I would get the animation of 2 fireballs but it would do no damage. If you are on PC, you could try doing several consecutive Force Pulse with a LA or MA weave. Calculate the average time to do each weave and your weave accuracy (the number of times you get a LA/MA off succesfully). That should help you determine what’s better for you.

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