Introduction to PvE damage calculation (Horns of the Reach)

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    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    Yes @Latin

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    InfiniteXavier

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 52

    How do the changes to Spinners and Sorrow change the “math”?

    • Mother’s Sorrow: Increased the Spell Critical Strike rating granted by this Item Set to 2470 from 1643.
    • Spinner’s Garments: Decreased the Spell Penetration granted by this Item Set to 3450 from 4000.
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    subtract23

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 30

    So will Lightning staves still be the king in trials or did inferno close the gap at all?

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    Eakerr4

    Novice

    Total Posts: 16

    Has anyone tested todays change to ‘execute’ abilities? does that strictly mean execute abilities? Or did the changes affect all % damage modifiers such as the ones that made Templars sweeps hit weaker than it should have been. If not, is the execute alone enough to close the gap (I mean make Magplars competitive) considering most classes ahead of us also enjoy a buff from the execute change?

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Profile photo of Eakerr4 Eakerr4.
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    Latin

    Moderator

    Total Posts: 1111

    Imperial

    @Eakerr4

    Not yet, but I doubt it, considering it took them a while to address the execute bonus damage.

    I am not in a position to test until the end of the week, but I am sure someone else can step in and verify whether it has been changed or not.

    e pluribus unum

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    Eakerr4

    Novice

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    Yea, I would test it but I’m a console pleb. I wish console players could download the PTS and play it, even if the characters are only premades.

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    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    @InfiniteXavier, Spinner was slightly better in solo situations previously. I did not recalculate with the changes to its 5 piece bonus but it’s probably safe to assume Julianos is better overall. Julianos and Sorrow are very closed for a magicka sorcerer (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/17/#post-686211). Sorrow may be better for templars/nightblades.

    @Eakerr4, the execute bonus definitely applies to Impale. All other damage done sources appear to still be additive. I didn’t test Radiant as that involves a bit of recording to get the right calculations.

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    C4Vice

    Journeyman

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    Asayre said on August 8, 2017 :

    @InfiniteXavier, Spinner was slightly better in solo situations previously. I did not recalculate with the changes to its 5 piece bonus but it’s probably safe to assume Julianos is better overall. Julianos and Sorrow are very closed for a magicka sorcerer (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/17/#post-686211). Sorrow may be better for templars/nightblades.

    @Eakerr4, the execute bonus definitely applies to Impale. All other damage done sources appear to still be additive. I didn’t test Radiant as that involves a bit of recording to get the right calculations.

    On nightblades i seem to have the highest dps with 5 sorrow, 2skoria(haven’t tested any other monster set) 4eather backbar (precise lightning) vma frontbar (precise inferno)…

    I have not yet tested the new torugs with infused though…

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Profile photo of C4Vice C4Vice. Reason: Radiant still broken
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    HelpFromAbove

    Novice

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    Altmer Sorcerer

    @Asayre – Or anyone else who knows the answer –

    As far as I have seen, we have always assumed Illambris to be BiS for MagSorcs. More generally, we have assumed a 2 piece set to be preferable to 2 5-piece bonuses. I wonder if this is still the case with HotR. 100% Uptime on Illambris should give the equivalent of ~1625-2200 DPS depending on bonuses. I am curious if there is a 5-piece bonus out there that would out-perform this if we lost the monster helm set (or at least the 2 piece bonus of it). I would have to guess that, given how obvious the question is, it was explored previously. Have the HotR changes been considered in regards to this? I’m looking to gain some knowledge about the matter in general (past and present), so I can speak intelligently to the guild mates. Thanks.

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    InfiniteXavier

    Journeyman

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    Hello again! So the current theory being spread at least on the X1 is that the 3pc from the trial sets are no longer BiS but rather that you should stack Julianos/Mother’s Sorrow for example.

    Do the changes this week to minor Slayer and executes impact those conclusions?

     

     

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    Jeckll

    Grandmaster

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    Redguard Nightblade

    Hi mate,

    your website tool calculates with 1946 for infused crusher while it’s 2108 in HotR due to the infused buff.

    Player: @Jeckll || Guild: Chimaira – Raidgroup Hydra || Server: EU

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    Jeckll

    Grandmaster

    Total Posts: 2434

    Redguard Nightblade

    HelpFromAbove said on August 8, 2017 :

    @Asayre – Or anyone else who knows the answer –

    As far as I have seen, we have always assumed Illambris to be BiS for MagSorcs. More generally, we have assumed a 2 piece set to be preferable to 2 5-piece bonuses. I wonder if this is still the case with HotR. 100% Uptime on Illambris should give the equivalent of ~1625-2200 DPS depending on bonuses. I amcurious if there is a 5-piece bonus out there that would out-perform this if we lost the monster helm set (or at least the 2 piece bonus of it). I would have to guess that, given how obvious the question is, it was explored previously. Have the HotR changes been considered in regards to this? I’m looking to gain some knowledge about the matter in general (past and present), so I can speak intelligently to the guild mates. Thanks.

    Illambris is a fixed damage part of your dps. So basically a bad player almost gets the same dps from it as a good player. If you use a second 5pc set with a scaling bonus – like the Mother set with +Crit, it cant be compared directly because scaling means the better you play and the better your group support is, the more you get from this bonus. There is a tipping point where a scaling bonus beats a static one. But only you can test if that’s true for you and your group/situation.

     

     

    InfiniteXavier said on August 10, 2017 :

    Hello again! So the current theory being spread at least on the X1 is that the 3pc from the trial sets are no longer BiS but rather that you should stack Julianos/Mother’s Sorrow for example.

    Do the changes this week to minor Slayer and executes impact those conclusions?

    The changes to have an impact.
    ATM Minor Slayer does have drastic diminishing returns especially for classes where execute damage is a big part of their total dps or they use a lot of +Damage done Modifiers in general. But I wouldnt mind too much as HotR buffers this issue now with the multiplicative scaling of execute damage.

    Nevertheless – the more CP we gain, the worst Minor Slayer gets. Lets talk again in 2-3 patches.

     

    Player: @Jeckll || Guild: Chimaira – Raidgroup Hydra || Server: EU

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    InfiniteXavier

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    Total Posts: 52

    Jeckll said on August 10, 2017 :

    The changes to have an impact.
    ATM Minor Slayer does have drastic diminishing returns especially for classes where execute damage is a big part of their total dps or they use a lot of +Damage done Modifiers in general. But I wouldnt mind too much as HotR buffers this issue now with the multiplicative scaling of execute damage.

    Nevertheless – the more CP we gain, the worst Minor Slayer gets. Lets talk again in 2-3 patches.

    So with minor slayer being devalued, do we only prefer if we are going for the full 5 like with Master Architect or War Machine or VO?

    If so, as a general rule or starting point, should we consider one of the “power” sets either pen or damage depending on group dynamics coupled with a crit set?

    Originally my plan was Llambris, Julianos, and 3 PC IA (4 on one bar, Maelstrom on other) so more specifically should I consider Alcasts build instead and go 5 sorrow?

    Unrelated to Asayre’s arithmagic, I wanted to ask you (jeckll) about a full stamina enabler build. We discussed it briefly a while back.

    With Alkosh coming back in flavor, rather than a tank moving away from their health/shield support (Ebon and or health scaled heals or shields), or ult Regen (bloods pawn, Tava,or Dragon), or cost reduction (Hircine or Worm), would it make any sense to have a DK run It from the DPS position?

    2 Mephala, 5 Alkosh, 4/5 Sunderflame (don’t need it on backbar)

    Alternatively if the deficiency on minor Slayer is substantial, maybe avoiding Alkosh and going Hundings is better…

    (Sorry in advance for the rambling above)

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    Jeckll

    Grandmaster

    Total Posts: 2434

    Redguard Nightblade

    InfiniteXavier said on August 10, 2017 :

    Jeckll said on August 10, 2017 :

    The changes to have an impact.
    ATM Minor Slayer does have drastic diminishing returns especially for classes where execute damage is a big part of their total dps or they use a lot of +Damage done Modifiers in general. But I wouldnt mind too much as HotR buffers this issue now with the multiplicative scaling of execute damage.

    Nevertheless – the more CP we gain, the worst Minor Slayer gets. Lets talk again in 2-3 patches.

    So with minor slayer being devalued, do we only prefer if we are going for the full 5 like with Master Architect or War Machine or VO?

    If so, as a general rule or starting point, should we consider one of the “power” sets either pen or damage depending on group dynamics coupled with a crit set?

    Originally my plan was Llambris, Julianos, and 3 PC IA (4 on one bar, Maelstrom on other) so more specifically should I consider Alcasts build instead and go 5 sorrow?

    Unrelated to Asayre’s arithmagic, I wanted to ask you (jeckll) about a full stamina enabler build. We discussed it briefly a while back.

    With Alkosh coming back in flavor, rather than a tank moving away from their health/shield support (Ebon and or health scaled heals or shields), or ult Regen (bloods pawn, Tava,or Dragon), or cost reduction (Hircine or Worm), would it make any sense to have a DK run It from the DPS position?

    2 Mephala, 5 Alkosh, 4/5 Sunderflame (don’t need it on backbar)

    Alternatively if the deficiency on minor Slayer is substantial, maybe avoiding Alkosh and going Hundings is better…

    (Sorry in advance for the rambling above)

    Totally the wrong guy to discuss Magicka setups im afraid.

    I personally am the very extreme example of +Damage Done modifiers as my build includes Major Slayer and Incap Strike as a finisher, giving me about 11% extra +Damage Done on average with 100% uptime of Minor Berserk and a pretty big piece of execute DPS with Killer’s Blade, Poison Injection and the Slaughter Passive.

    I still got about the same results with WM as I did with NMG on PTS so for 5pc sets, all of them are really close for Stamina. The only 2 exeptions are TFS which is way better than other sets and sets that carry their 5pc on the back bar like WM and NMG. Those “carry over” sets are really good as 2nd set you can use with Dual Wield weapons.

    To get back to your original question, it highly depends on what you are doing. I’m sure Sorrow is great with all the Buffs and Warhorn Uptime Hodor supplies to Alcast. If your group is not that advanced or you are talking about a solo use, I think you are better off with a monster set.

     

    Regarding your question about Stamina Supporter: Still not convinced Alkosh is coming back but it could be. I just dont like the idea to activate synergies all the time that others might need plus even in HotR, you can reach Pen Cap pretty easily without sacrificing too much elsewhere. But lets say Alkosh makes a comeback.

    In that case, I would still let a tank use it. He doesnt have a fixed rota he has to execute to achieve maximum dps. He’s free to use synergies.
    For DPS, I would stick to NMG, Sunderflame, Powerful Assault, Morag Tong and War Machine which are more than enough Support Set to distribute.

    In our raid, we have 3 StamDPS and we all use TFS+1 Support Set.

     

    Player: @Jeckll || Guild: Chimaira – Raidgroup Hydra || Server: EU

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    InfiniteXavier

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 52

    Jeckll said on August 11, 2017 :

    Totally the wrong guy to discuss Magicka setups im afraid.

    Meh. That’s not totally true. ;-) you’ve got a good handle on most of it. Stam may be your focus, but you “know” your stuff.

     

    Jeckll said on August 11, 2017 :

    I personally am the very extreme example of +Damage Done modifiers as my build includes Major Slayer and Incap Strike as a finisher, giving me about 11% extra +Damage Done on average with 100% uptime of Minor Berserk and a pretty big piece of execute DPS with Killer’s Blade, Poison Injection and the Slaughter Passive.

    So while we may devalue minor slayer by itself, it’s hard to if minor plus major slayer?

    Jeckll said on August 11, 2017 :

    In our raid, we have 3 StamDPS and we all use TFS+1 Support Set.

    Are most using WM with one NMG or is it spread out? If spread out, which sets are the “odd-man” out? Sunderflame and Morag?

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    HelpFromAbove

    Novice

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    Altmer Sorcerer

    @Jeckll – Good point. I will have to do some experimenting.

     

    Another general question to the floor – Can I get some clarification on the use of the HotR CP optimizer in regards to the Brute Force function? When putting in my values to the CP optimizer, I know we put in our character values prior to CP buffs, for obvious reasons. However, I am unclear if, to make best use of the brute force method, we should be using values for crit chance, crit damage and spell penetration non-inclusive of our weapon traits and mundus. For example, if I am using a precise staff and shadow, should I subtract 9% from my crit chance and 18% from crit damage when using the brute force system so that I don’t stack 9% additional critical on when it calculated other combinations?

    I hope my question is clear enough to show what my confusion is. If it is not, please let me know.

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    DonkeyJote

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 36

    So on a Stam Build, would I be better off doing Hundings/TFS if I only have Blue Jewelry for TFS, or something like Hundings/Spriggans or TFS/Leviathan?

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    Azhrarn666

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 9

    Dunmer Nightblade

    Back to the drawing board!

    (Or in that case, to the computer!)

    Especially considering that compared to previous PTS patch notes:

    1. The Shadow: Reduced the bonus Critical Damage to 9% from 12% (in the PTS, it was as-is, at 12%)
    2. Universally adjusted the values of some 1, 2, 3, and 4-piece bonus stats for all Item Sets:
      • Weapon Critical or Spell Critical rating has been increased by 21% (and not by 55% as previously announced)
    3. Only the weapon you are currently holding will now proc enchantments. This resolves some issues where you would cast an ability then weapon swap, and your weapon enchantment would proc from the weapon you weren’t currently holding. (Yeah, that was a bug so I can’t really argue against that one).

    Somehow I have the feeling that nobody at ZoS is doing the calculations but let Theorycrafters do the math and afterwards, ZoS adjust at the last minute.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Profile photo of Azhrarn666 Azhrarn666.
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    Eakerr4

    Novice

    Total Posts: 16

    and…

    1) precise buff got rolled back to values from live

    2) Mothers Sorrow values (2,3,4,and 5) are less than last PTS but higher than live

    3) Nirn lightning could be interesting but it doesn’t drop from most PVE loot tables aside from Maelstrom? meaning it will be hard to come by.

    4) Templar’s % damage bug on execute and sweeps seems to not be a bug as they are apparently intentionally leaving it out of their ‘fix’ only fixing impale etc???

    Very dissapointed with the way they chose to prioritize their time in this final push to get the patch out. VERY.

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    Latin

    Moderator

    Total Posts: 1111

    Imperial

    I think they rushed this last batch of combat balance; it would have benefited from another week or so on the PTS. I guess that their marketing decisions let them down.

    With the change to precise, shadow and thief, all the options become quite close. If you recall Asayre’s comparison, these were some of the main factors to the high metric scores. Even if infused is unchanged, it could be difficult to maintain 100% uptime from a practical perspective, and its ‘metric’ in practice would have been lower than the ones quoted.

    e pluribus unum

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