Introduction to PvE damage calculation (Horns of the Reach)

  1. Member Avatar
    HelpFromAbove

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 33

    Altmer Sorcerer

    Thanks @Asayre and @Decay for the replies. It now makes sense why Sharpened Lightning has been BiS for front bar for so long. I assume then, that this would apply to critical chance and other similar metrics?

    Thanks for being knowledgeable and willing to share the information. This helps a lot with how I will plan my new rotation and skill assignments.

  2. Member Avatar
    Gil-Galad

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 8

     

     

    Asayre said on July 14, 2017 :

    @decay is pretty much right. Here is the answer with a bit too much detail. If you refer to this link, there is a column called StaticDynamic(column D).For Static abilities the tooltip and percentage penetration and flat penetration are calculated on cast. Armour debuff, damage done and damage taken modifiers are always calculated dynamically (that is to say based on what bar you are using or what debuffs are applied). A quirk of these calculation method is Flame Clench will do more damage if casted before Major Breach (compared to casting Major Breach then Flame Clench). As a rough rule of thumb, everything is dynamically calculated except for targeted dots.

    Ancient Knowledge is a Damage Done modifier so swapping to a lightning staff will increase its damage.

    This dynamic dmg calculation made me curious how it would work with infused, so I went on the PTS and made a few tests with the vMA bow. I always casted endless hail on the backbar and switched to the dual wield bar before the first hit.

    • Setup 1: sharpened vMA, dual wield (no trait, no trait)
      Ticks increased by 36 each hit
    • Setup 2: sharpened vMA, dual wield (no trait, infused)
      Ticks increased by 36 each hit
    • Setup 3: sharpened vMA, dual wield (infused, no trait)
      Ticks increased by 49 each hit

    So it seems that vMA enchant’s power gets increased by an infused weapon on the frontbar, which is huge for stamina builds and magicka heavy attack builds. I’m not sure if it is working as intended though. This makes infused basically BIS for every build that includes vMA weapons on the backbar.

     

  3. Profile Photo
    decay

    Expert

    Total Posts: 316

    Dunmer Templar

    Gil-Galad said on July 14, 2017 :

    Asayre said on July 14, 2017 :

    @decay is pretty much right. Here is the answer with a bit too much detail. If you refer to this link, there is a column called StaticDynamic(column D).For Static abilities the tooltip and percentage penetration and flat penetration are calculated on cast. Armour debuff, damage done and damage taken modifiers are always calculated dynamically (that is to say based on what bar you are using or what debuffs are applied). A quirk of these calculation method is Flame Clench will do more damage if casted before Major Breach (compared to casting Major Breach then Flame Clench). As a rough rule of thumb, everything is dynamically calculated except for targeted dots.

    Ancient Knowledge is a Damage Done modifier so swapping to a lightning staff will increase its damage.

    This dynamic dmg calculation made me curious how it would work with infused, so I went on the PTS and made a few tests with the vMA bow. I always casted endless hail on the backbar and switched to the dual wield bar before the first hit.

    • Setup 1: sharpened vMA, dual wield (no trait, no trait)
      Ticks increased by 36 each hit
    • Setup 2: sharpened vMA, dual wield (no trait, infused)
      Ticks increased by 36 each hit
    • Setup 3: sharpened vMA, dual wield (infused, no trait)
      Ticks increased by 49 each hit

    So it seems that vMA enchant’s power gets increased by an infused weapon on the frontbar, which is huge for stamina builds and magicka heavy attack builds. I’m not sure if it is working as intended though. This makes infused basically BIS for every build that includes vMA weapons on the backbar.

    That’s pretty much the reason why Infused on Mainhand is so popular currently for stamina builds. But I believe this is essentially a bug which will get fixed at some point.

    This has been shown in more detail by @Jeckll in his Stamina NB guide (a bit down in the Theory Crafting section)

     

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Profile photo of decay decay.
  4. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    HelpFromAbove said on July 14, 2017 :

    Thanks @Asayre and @Decay for the replies. It now makes sense why Sharpened Lightning has been BiS for front bar for so long. I assume then, that this would apply to critical chance and other similar metrics?

    Thanks for being knowledgeable and willing to share the information. This helps a lot with how I will plan my new rotation and skill assignments.

    Critical modifier is dynamically calculated. I think critical chance is as well but I don’t have proof for that.

    Thanks @decay for the link. I vaguely recall reading about Infused and VMA once but forgot where it was.

  5. Profile Photo
    decay

    Expert

    Total Posts: 316

    Dunmer Templar

    Asayre said on July 14, 2017 :

    HelpFromAbove said on July 14, 2017 :

    Thanks @Asayre and @Decay for the replies. It now makes sense why Sharpened Lightning has been BiS for front bar for so long. I assume then, that this would apply to critical chance and other similar metrics?

    Thanks for being knowledgeable and willing to share the information. This helps a lot with how I will plan my new rotation and skill assignments.

    Critical modifier is dynamically calculated. I think critical chance is as well but I don’t have proof for that.

    Thanks @decay for the link. I vaguely recall readingabout Infused and VMA once but forgot where it was.

    I only know because my templar sucks now. Have to explore some other options :D

     

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    Nosferatuzod

    Grandmaster

    Total Posts: 1975

    Khajiit Templar

    Every time I run the new CP distributor, the mundus stone/trait combination comes out as Infused/Apprentice…but I just cannot understand how in the world Apprentice which after spell power buffs is around 429 spell damage can compare to lover’s 4196 penetration… for infused its 365 spell damage (fully buffed) vs 9.74% crit which you can at least fathom being comparable, but 429 spell damage versus 8%+ damage?

    What am I missing?

  7. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    @Nosferatuzod, if you show your inputs I can run through the calculation manually to validate it.

  8. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    I added support for stamina characters. The DPS metric calculated will be stamina based if your stamina pool is greater than your magicka pool. I also tried to change the armour debuffs from a checkbox to a number to support different uptimes more easily (as opposed to using the other box previously) but with mixed success. I somehow get the right output in Firefox but an incorrect output in Chrome. Also if anyone could teach me how to highlight the maximum row in a table or to change the optimise CP display when hovering on different combinations that would be fantastic.

    Source code:

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4t_FGzvlAoFWDlsMUJZMFJkdE0

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Profile photo of Asayre Asayre.
  9. Member Avatar
    Leomed47

    Novice

    Total Posts: 20

    @Asayre, I’m trying to use your upadted optimization page to look forward to what builds will look like come HoTR, but it seems like there’s some sort of bug in the code that is not accounting for penetration cap (or maybe you just forgot to add it again when updating things, been there, done that :P), as an example you can enable all sorts of armor debuffs and manually add in the ~4.1k penetration from The Lover with full divines, it outputs 51 points into Spell Erosion as part of the optimal CP distribution, when considering all the debuffs, sharpened, concentration and Lover stone we all well past the penetration cap already, thanks again for your awesome work!

  10. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    Leomed47 said on July 16, 2017 :

    @Asayre, I’m trying to use your upadted optimization page to look forward to what builds will look like come HoTR, but it seems like there’s some sort of bug in the code that is not accounting for penetration cap (or maybe you just forgot to add it again when updating things, been there, done that :P), as an example you can enable all sorts of armor debuffs and manually add in the ~4.1k penetration from The Lover with full divines, it outputs 51 points into Spell Erosion as part of the optimal CP distribution, when considering all the debuffs, sharpened, concentration and Lover stone we all well past the penetration cap already, thanks again for your awesome work!

    Could you take a screenshot of example inputs? Thanks

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    InfiniteXavier

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 56

    Asayre said on July 13, 2017 :

    I ran a few set combinations namely, 5 piece Julianos, 5 piece Spinner, 5 piece Destruction Mastery, and 5 piece TBS with 2 piece Ilambris, 4 piece Infalliable Aether, and I am surprised by the preponderance of Infused.7 Divines looks to be preferred for the best trait/mundus combination but on average Infused/Divines seems to be better. By average, I am taking the average ability metric for all combinations. It looks like the best combination is ~2% better than the average combination which I take to be a decent sign of balance. Of the sets considered, it appears that

    Spinner > Julianos > Destruction Mastery > TBS

    I hate to pigeonhole this discussion as it was one of my favorite reads in quite a while.

    Are we calling 5 Spinners and 4 IA BiS? For Magicka Sorcs?

    Or was this just for testing purposes?

    Have you had an opportunity to think about Master Architect, and Moondancer combos?

    Do we prefer IA for crit?

  12. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    InfiniteXavier said on July 16, 2017 :

    I hate topigeonhole this discussion as it was one of my favorite reads in quite a while.

    Are we calling 5 Spinners and 4IA BiS? For Magicka Sorcs?

    Or was this just for testing purposes?

    Have you had an opportunity to think about Master Architect, and Moondancer combos?

    Do we prefer IA for crit?

    For solo situations (defined arbitrary as Major Breach and Major Sorcery): Spinner > Julianos > Destruction Mastery > Twice Born Star
    For group situations (defined arbitrary as Major Breach, Minor Breach, Major Sorcery, Minor Sorcery, Minor Prophecy, Infused Crusher, Warhorn, Major Force (33% uptime)) : Julianos > Spinner > Destruction Mastery > Twice Born Star

    Charts and stuff : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359916/mundus-trait-and-cp-optimisation-for-pve-damage-dealers

    This is from all the things I have calculated for, which is not many. There are so many combinations I need some fancier stuff to calculate everything. Master Archiest and Moondancer will probably require simulations as opposed to DPS metric calculations.

    For Julianos, it seems that IA is preferred over Moondancer for the 4 piece.

  13. Member Avatar
    InfiniteXavier

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 56

    Is there a difference on traits for front bar vs back bar?

  14. Member Avatar
    Elmanzo

    Novice

    Total Posts: 21

    Altmer Sorcerer

    Hello asayre,first at all Thanks for all the amazing work you are doing for the community.when you Say that the Gap between infused and sharpened is around 2.5% are you considering  average values from all trait/mundus combinaTion or just the values you get from best trait/mundus combo?(its seems the second one to me but i want to be sure)

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    Leomed47

    Novice

    Total Posts: 20

    @Asayre, here’s a screenshot of the inputs I’m using for your optimizer http://i.imgur.com/O4mraAg.png

  16. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    @InfiniteXavier, this is based on average behaviour so doesn’t account for the complexity of front and back bar.

    @Elmanzo, if you meant when I said

    Weapon trait order

    • Solo: Sharpened > Infused > Precise > Nirnhoned ; range ~1.4%
    • Group: Infused > Precise > Nirnhoned > Sharpened ; range ~2.5%

    That is for the average value. The value varies depending on what set is being considered.

    Thanks @Leomed47. What version of internet explorer are you running? I have IE 11.1480.14393.0 and the site doesn’t even work on it :/

    I was unable to reproduce your problem on either Chrome or Firefox. As an aside you can use [ img ] [ /img ] to post a picture (remove the spaces)

    As an aside, 63% max magicka multiplier?

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by Profile photo of Asayre Asayre.
  17. Member Avatar
    Leomed47

    Novice

    Total Posts: 20

    @Asayre, I was trying it on the lastest (live) iteration of Microsoft Edge, I tried it yesterday and still got the same result in spell erosion but today it’s working for some reason (zero popping out when cap is reached) even while still using Edge. Multiplier comes from: 10% racial passive (Altmer), 20% CP (Is this one not supposed to be included here?), 8% Bound Aegis, 9% Inner Light+Shooting Star, 6% Undaunted and 10% from Warhorn (100% uptime)

  18. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    @Leomed47 glad it’s working, no idea why it went weird the other day. CP multiplier is not included it is just stuff from skills so you should have 43%.

  19. Member Avatar
    subtract23

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 30

    So from my quick read through you’ve calculated that Lover, julianos, and infused(over precise?) all beat out their competition in terms of grouped pve dps?(mag sorc)
    I never saw u mention bsw/netch..where do they fall at when comparing sets? Are vMA staves still meta on BB? If so, i’d assume infused is deadly on one(same deal with a master staff).

    Finally, did u test what element is best on staves in pve? I know double light has been the rage since morrow, but with status effects changing I could see 2x inferno staves
    possibly inching ahead

  20. Member Avatar
    Asayre

    Master

    Total Posts: 632

    Breton Sorcerer

    @subtract23, I didn’t compare bsw/netch because that depends on your rotation and bsw uptime. I’m not too sure what to put on the back bar yet. Some people have good uptime with an infused non-vma staff on the backbar and are free to use a vma staff on the front bar while others get poor uptimes with an infused non-vma staff on the backbar and prefer to use infused on the front bar.

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