Dev destroying Templar ? (after recent patch)

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  1. Avatar ImageMerowym

    Apprentice

    Daggerfall

    Total Posts: 41

    my analysis :

    teso is meant to offer every class a bunch of playstyle choices, ok?

    every class has 3 dps skill lines + a heal line with the resto staff, except for the templar that has 2 dps skill lines + one specific heal line, ok?

    so the templar has one dps skill line less than the others, ok?

    the other classes need to have light armor, a magika friendly race and a resto staff in order to be efficient at healing, ok?

    so where is the originality of the templar if it needs light armor, magika friendly race and a resto staff to be efficient too?

    Moreover, if it needs to have a resto staff, magika friendly race and light armor, exactly like the other classes, this means that where the other classes have 3 dps skill lines + resto staff, the templar has only 2 dps skill lines + resto staff, ok?

    moreover (bis), beeing magika dependant for dps and tanking due to a lack of weapons and spell synergy + having all its best spells with a cast time, it makes the templar not as good as the other 3 classes in tanking and dps, ok? (there is a thread on this forum, that lists all the deadly combos for every classes, there are like 30+ combos, and the templar has hardly 2 of them…)

    so tell me now :

    if the templar can’t tank and dps as well as the other classes and need a resto staff, a magika friendly race and light armor, exactly like the other 3 classes, in order to be an efficient healer, where is the interest of the templar? its specificity? it’s own special flavor?

    it is quite simple according to me :

    it doesn’t have one anymore, and i am very, very dissapointed by zenimax regarding this issue.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 4 weeks ago by Avatar Image Merowym.
  2. Member AvatarKlatar

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 8

    Phenomen said on March 25, 2014 :

    @isometricMeanwhile Erlexx (Templar) andPhazius (DK) 2-man clearing VR group dungeons.

    They have the strongest healing spells ingame. Everyone else has to rely on resto staff, where pretty much nothing crits and there’s no life saver heal. Right now, templars are the only ones able to heal you up really fast, but at higher costs.

    If a templar had some relly good magicka reg, they would be BY FAR the best healer ingame. IF they implement a very powerful magicka regenration, they have to nerf the healing spells output, like part of it goes isn’t instant heal, but a hot.

     

    The real point i see is dps. They need to add some dps push, but i think they should be really good with stamina reggen so that healers dont become totally OP while DPS and tanks can compete.

  3. Member Avatarinakura

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 86

    Is anyone worried about the viability of a pure healing build? I want to know if people think a dedicated healing build won’t be able to keep up due to magicka.  I feel like other means of magicka generation are being dismissed to easily without heavy consideration.

     

    Simulating a toon with:

    max Magicka:2000, Magicka Regen: 89(soft cap) (~30 in combat),  42%MCR, 66Flat MCR, 5% chance to negate spell cost (magnus set) and Casting (old) lingering ritual every 3 seconds it would take 63 seconds to run out of mana!

    If you run this with a toon that has no MCR you run out of mana in 21 seconds.  I think it should seriously be considered

  4. Member AvatarNainna

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 1

    inakura said on March 26, 2014 :

    I feel like other means of magicka generation are being dismissed to easily without heavy consideration.

    I have seen you post this repeatedly.  No I don’t think that it is being discounted as I am sure many here have played enough MMOs to understand the concept of throughput.

    Of your 42% MCR above the only portion that is unique to the Templar is 4%.  Other classes would have access to an MCR of 38% plus additional active abilities for magika regen.

    That means we are back to comparing a 4% MCR passive versus an active ability to regenerate magika.  As has been shown repeatedly in this thread 4% MCR, in of itself, is not sufficient.

    If other classes, due to their innate ability to regenerate magika at a sufficient rate, do not need to invest as heavily into MCR as your fictitious Templar would that not mean the Templar has to forgo other boosts just to achieve a workable throughput of magika?

    It is not that stacking MCR might not help, it is that Templars would be forced to stack MCR in order to be feasible while other classes have the luxury of “playing the way they want”

     

     

  5. Avatar ImageMordikye

    Expert

    Altmer Templar

    Aurea Sicarii

    Total Posts: 434

    Nainna said on March 26, 2014 :

    inakura said on March 26, 2014 :

    I feel like other means of magicka generation are being dismissed to easily without heavy consideration.

    I have seen you post this repeatedly. No I don’t think that it is being discounted as I am sure many here have played enough MMOs to understand the concept of throughput.

    Of your 42% MCR above the only portion that is unique to the Templar is 4%. Other classes would have access to an MCR of 38% plus additional active abilities for magika regen.

    That means we are back to comparing a 4% MCR passive versus an active ability to regenerate magika. As has been shown repeatedly in this thread 4% MCR, in of itself, is not sufficient.

    If other classes, due to their innate ability to regenerate magika at a sufficient rate, do not need to invest as heavily into MCR as your fictitious Templar would that not mean the Templar has to forgo other boosts just to achieve a workable throughput of magika?

    It is not that stacking MCR might not help, it is that Templars would be forced to stack MCR in order to be feasible while other classes have the luxury of “playing the way they want”

    110% Correct.

    I’m not concerned because the pidgeonholed MCR build is now just the way you have to do it. For now.

    It works but people are mad.

    When will this thread die!

     

    That was unexpectedly competent. You’d make an adequate house servant. I don’t suppose you’d consider it? The pay is meager, but the fringe benefits are appalling.

    - Haskill

  6. Avatar ImageTiberion

    Journeyman

    Breton Templar

    Knights of the Silver Blade

    Total Posts: 53

    the only way to get that high of mcr is to completely focus ur entire character around it and NEED to have light armor on (Not to mention every other class can do this and do it better because they have an ACTIVE form to get mag). I for one don’t want to heal or wear light armor which it seems is the only way as it is now to play a Templar. This is only 1 problem that this game has and there is a lot of them.

  7. Avatar ImageMordikye

    Expert

    Altmer Templar

    Aurea Sicarii

    Total Posts: 434

    Tiberion said on March 26, 2014 :

    the only way to get that high of mcr is to completely focus ur entire character around it andNEED tohave light armor on (Not to mention every other class can do this and do it better because they have an ACTIVEformto get mag).I for one don’t want to heal or wear light armor which it seems is the only way as it is now to play a Templar. This is only 1 problem that this game has and there is a lot of them.

    Please go and make a doomsayer TF thread for each and every one of the multitude of perceived problems you have.

     

    That was unexpectedly competent. You’d make an adequate house servant. I don’t suppose you’d consider it? The pay is meager, but the fringe benefits are appalling.

    - Haskill

  8. Member Avatarinakura

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 86

    Nainna said on March 26, 2014 :

    inakura said on March 26, 2014 :

    I feel like other means of magicka generation are being dismissed to easily without heavy consideration.

    I have seen you post this repeatedly. No I don’t think that it is being discounted as I am sure many here have played enough MMOs to understand the concept of throughput.

    Of your 42% MCR above the only portion that is unique to the Templar is 4%. Other classes would have access to an MCR of 38% plus additional active abilities for magika regen.

    That means we are back to comparing a 4% MCR passive versus an active ability to regenerate magika. As has been shown repeatedly in this thread 4% MCR, in of itself, is not sufficient.

    If other classes, due to their innate ability to regenerate magika at a sufficient rate, do not need to invest as heavily into MCR as your fictitious Templar would that not mean the Templar has to forgo other boosts just to achieve a workable throughput of magika?

    It is not that stacking MCR might not help, it is that Templars would be forced to stack MCR in order to be feasible while other classes have the luxury of “playing the way they want”

    I agree.  Although think about if you had stacked mcr AND had the previous  restoring spirit.  Spells would cost near 10% of original.  This would make it overpowered.  Maybe the answer is in the healing spells and not restoring spirit.

  9. Avatar ImageZansatsu

    Adept

    Dunmer Templar

    Total Posts: 150

    Klatar said on March 26, 2014 :

    Phenomen said on March 25, 2014 :

    @isometricMeanwhile Erlexx (Templar) andPhazius (DK) 2-man clearing VR group dungeons.

    They have the strongest healing spells ingame. Everyone else has to rely on resto staff, where pretty much nothing crits and there’s no life saver heal. Right now, templars are the only ones able to heal you up really fast, but at higher costs.

    If a templar had some relly good magicka reg, they would be BY FAR the best healer ingame. IF they implement a very powerful magicka regenration, they have to nerf the healing spells output, like part of it goes isn’t instant heal, but a hot.

    The real point i see is dps. They need to add some dps push, but i think they should be really good with stamina reggen so that healers dont become totally OP while DPS and tanks can compete.

    The healing in this game, though harder, is OK. Stamina builds are where all the magicka problems really hurt. Try and pay attention all of you who keep saying try this try that. Self heals is how this class is designed to sustain itself and they are very expensive. All the damage mitigation abilities are far inferior to the other classes why? Because we have heals. The problem is they are tooooooooo expensive where as DKs have long lasting damage mitigation, NBs have life steals, and Sorcs have strong cc. That’s why magic regen is so important to this class and why the Devs will in the end be unable to fix it. If they fix the regen problems they feel the Stamina builds will be impossible to kill in my opinion. Stamina builds BTWto all those who think eequilibrium will fix this is a complete non starter. How could you possibly afford a health swap for a mana regen to then heal yourself while soloing. You can’t. In a group where you won’t have to heal yourself the Templar will be nice. But solo….how do they fix it.

  10. Avatar ImageMerowym

    Apprentice

    Daggerfall

    Total Posts: 41

    what you people don’t seem to understand is that we don’t complain because of the magika regen itself, we complain because it doesn’t allow us anything else than resto staff + light armor + breton.

    let me explain once more :

    teso is meant to offer every class a bunch of playstyle choices, ok?

     

    every class has 3 dps skill lines + a heal line with the resto staff, except for the templar that has 2 dps skill lines + one specific heal line, ok?

     

    so the templar has one dps skill line less than the others, ok?

     

    the other classes need to have light armor, a magika friendly race and a resto staff in order to be efficient at healing, ok?

     

    so where is the originality of the templar if it needs light armor, magika friendly race and a resto staff to be efficient too?

     

    Moreover, if it needs to have a resto staff, magika friendly race and light armor, exactly like the other classes, this means that where the other classes have 3 dps skill lines + resto staff, the templar has only 2 dps skill lines + resto staff, ok?

     

    moreover (bis), beeing magika dependant for dps and tanking due to a lack of weapons and spell synergy + having all its best spells with a cast time, it makes the templar not as good as the other 3 classes in tanking and dps, ok? (there is a thread on this forum, that lists all the deadly combos for every classes, there are like 30+ combos, and the templar has hardly 2 of them…)

     

    so tell me now :

     

    if the templar can’t tank and dps as well as the other classes and need a resto staff, a magika friendly race and light armor, exactly like the other 3 classes, in order to be an efficient healer, where is the interest of the templar? its specificity? it’s own special flavor? it’s not there anymore.

    More over ² : if a dk or a nb can use any armor and any weapon and still be efficient at dps, tank or heal, why would the templar only be able to be efficient in healing but only in wearing light armor and resto staff?

    We would like to sacrifice some mana regen to be able to wear medium / heavy armor and equip something else than a resto staff, but it is simply impossible because templar dps or tank needs more mana than the others and we have less regen than the others!

    Look at the reaver template of the sorcerer, it’s medium armor, 2h or dual wield, and still very reliable and strong! so tell me why the templar would be contained on a playstyle with resto staff and light armor from a side and every other class would be able to do whatever they chose with minor penalities on the other side?

    This is the only problem I see, the nerfs are forcing templar to in play one and only way with one and only armor and one and only weapon… And this is very frustrating.

     

    sorry for my poor english

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by Avatar Image Merowym.
  11. Member AvatarKlatar

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 8

    The thing is, even most NB or sorcerer healers will go for light armor + Resto Staff + Breton. And i don’t think they will be any better than templars. They will have weaker heals, but overall stronger sustainability.

     

    Healing wise, this IMO totally works out. They will nerf some of the nightblade bugs anyway like resto staff giving 4 ticks of siphoning strikes. This will totally nerf their mana reggen to the bottom. Sorcerers mana reggen is tied to stamina use (you need it for certain abiilites and dodges) and  a channeled cast where they can’t move and can be interrupted.

     

    I wonder how templars came to think that we will be the worst healers ingame. I talked a lot in my own guild and really everyone was asking for a templar heal. Right now, 6 of 7 healers will be templar, one sorceror.  And i’m pretty sure that templars will be the most wanted healer in veteran dungeons and PVP and especially in PVE. Our heals are just so powerful and intelligent.

     

    As long as we have the best tool kit, i expect us to be the most wanted healer ingame. I’d be more afraid if other classes had as powerful heals as we do (+ very nice passives, don’t forget them!).

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by Member Avatar Klatar.
  12. Avatar ImageHKyouma

    Apprentice

    Breton Templar

    Pantheon

    Total Posts: 45

    Mordikye said on March 26, 2014 :

    Tiberion said on March 26, 2014 :

    the only way to get that high of mcr is to completely focus ur entire character around it andNEED tohave light armor on (Not to mention every other class can do this and do it better because they have an ACTIVEformto get mag).I for one don’t want to heal or wear light armor which it seems is the only way as it is now to play a Templar. This is only 1 problem that this game has and there is a lot of them.

    Please go and make a doomsayer TF thread for each and every one of the multitude of perceived problems you have.

    Lol

    anata no banana punyu punyu da ne

    ESO tag: @protoDoc

  13. Avatar ImageHKyouma

    Apprentice

    Breton Templar

    Pantheon

    Total Posts: 45

    inakura said on March 26, 2014 :

    Nainna said on March 26, 2014 :

    inakura said on March 26, 2014 :

    I feel like other means of magicka generation are being dismissed to easily without heavy consideration.

    I have seen you post this repeatedly. No I don’t think that it is being discounted as I am sure many here have played enough MMOs to understand the concept of throughput.

    Of your 42% MCR above the only portion that is unique to the Templar is 4%. Other classes would have access to an MCR of 38% plus additional active abilities for magika regen.

    That means we are back to comparing a 4% MCR passive versus an active ability to regenerate magika. As has been shown repeatedly in this thread 4% MCR, in of itself, is not sufficient.

    If other classes, due to their innate ability to regenerate magika at a sufficient rate, do not need to invest as heavily into MCR as your fictitious Templar would that not mean the Templar has to forgo other boosts just to achieve a workable throughput of magika?

    It is not that stacking MCR might not help, it is that Templars would be forced to stack MCR in order to be feasible while other classes have the luxury of “playing the way they want”

    I agree. Although think about if you had stacked mcr AND had the previous restoring spirit. Spells would cost near 10% of original. This would make it overpowered. Maybe the answer is in the healing spells and not restoring spirit.

    This is in exchange for one less dps tree and a lack of active magicka regen skills… I don’t think that’s “OP” it’s a trade off in class choice…

    anata no banana punyu punyu da ne

    ESO tag: @protoDoc

  14. Member AvatarDarrett

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 34

    Just thought I’d mention this here; the change on PTS to Healing Ritual doubled it’s cost and it’s healing amount. I can see why a 20% reduction in cost through Light Weaver could have been too much with that kind of increase (600 magicka base to cast it now), but they need to look at regeneration now more than ever.

  15. Avatar ImageComa

    Master

    Breton Templar

    Total Posts: 532

    Darrett said on March 27, 2014 :

    Just thought I’d mention this here; the change on PTS to Healing Ritual doubled it’s cost and it’s healing amount. I can see why a 20% reduction in cost through Light Weaver could have been too much with that kind of increase (600 magicka base to cast it now), but they need to look at regeneration now more than ever.

     

    surce for those numbers? The only comment I heard about the new value was someone “reporting erlex comment” and that aws about 5% more healing and 25% more cost… those numbers are quite different… while I’m not really prone to give credit to “I heard from someonelse” … since the name quoted is that of a long time PTS tester it just got a little more weight than that from a 27odd post user (without offense, is not like the post count makes you credible or not… simply that erlex info till now have been pretty solid while I can’t say the same for you since this is the first time I read one post on your name ^^ )

     

    anyway… if those numbers were true… it may really be worse than the soft number we heard before… double the cost of ritual makes it a pretty expensive skill… even if it does heal double the previous amount it turn a low cost upkeep heal into a crunch time big heal… that by itself could even be good… but it actualy leave the templar without low cost heals… if this change is true than templar simply have a big costy single target heal or a big costy aoe heal… nothing that he can use to hold the group healt at a solid %… the only way to play it become to let the group life go down and than pop up the big heal… but this expose the group to high risk (and since the big heal have casting time if something get in the way of the templar it can scrwe up the party for good…) it almost force the templar into using at least one skill from the resto staff… and as pointed many times templar are really poor user of resto staff…

     

    the more I hear about it and the more this last change make it hard for me to understand what plan the Devs have for the templar :/

  16. Avatar ImageCarpathius

    Journeyman

    Breton Templar

    Lowly Knights of Stendarr

    Total Posts: 57

    @Erlexx Do you mind confirming the % increases to healing and cost?

  17. Member Avataruberowo

    Journeyman

    Total Posts: 82

    Would love to hear Erlexx feedback on the latest change as well, and his impression of how this changes the Templars “toolbox”.

  18. Member AvatarDarrett

    Apprentice

    Total Posts: 34

    Coma said on March 27, 2014 :

    Darrett said on March 27, 2014 :

    Just thought I’d mention this here; the change on PTS to Healing Ritual doubled it’s cost and it’s healing amount. I can see why a 20% reduction in cost through Light Weaver could have been too much with that kind of increase (600 magicka base to cast it now), but they need to look at regeneration now more than ever.

    surce for those numbers? The only comment I heard about the new value was someone “reporting erlex comment” and that aws about 5% more healing and 25% more cost… those numbers are quite different… while I’m not really prone to give credit to “I heard from someonelse” … since the name quoted is that of a long time PTS tester it just got a little more weight than that from a 27odd post user (without offense, is not like the post count makes you credible or not… simply that erlex info till now have been pretty solid while I can’t say the same for you since this is the first time I read one post on your name ^^ )

    anyway… if those numbers were true… it may really be worse than the soft number we heard before… double the cost of ritual makes it a pretty expensive skill… even if it does heal double the previous amount it turn a low cost upkeep heal into a crunch time big heal… that by itself could even be good… but it actualy leave the templar without low cost heals… if this change is true than templar simply have a big costy single target heal or a big costy aoe heal… nothing that he can use to hold the group healt at a solid %… the only way to play it become to let the group life go down and than pop up the big heal… but this expose the group to high risk (and since the big heal have casting time if something get in the way of the templar it can scrwe up the party for good…) it almost force the templar into using at least one skill from the resto staff… and as pointed many times templar are really poor user of resto staff…

    the more I hear about it and the more this last change make it hard for me to understand what plan the Devs have for the templar :/

    http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1497035-what-do-templars-do-best/?p=23539548

    From Ithril, directly from PTS.

     

    Regarding post count, I had never heard of this forum until the last couple of weeks, I have the same name as here on the Bethesda forums, with a slightly higher post count and older join date, if that makes a difference.

  19. Avatar Imagebradadad

    Journeyman

    Dunmer Dragonknight

    Total Posts: 53

    Is this the guy that made the decision to reduce Templar magicka regen?

    http://elderscrollsotr.mymiddleearth.com/2014/02/15/my-eso-class-comparison-sorcerer-vs-templar/

    It appears to be a feedback page of some sort regarding Templars. Now is your chance to post,
    assuming I have the right guy.

     

    Nevermind, I’m way off. Not sure where I got the idea I was at  Nick Konkle’s blog lol.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by Avatar Image bradadad.

    “The whole secret lies in confusing the enemy, so that he cannot fathom our real intent.”
    ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

  20. Avatar ImageEzxistence

    Journeyman

    Daggerfall Templar

    Total Posts: 64

    How many times you guys gonna repeat yourselves?

    haha

     

    I will only be pissed if they add heals that are equal to templar for other classes.  Other than that I am not upset with Templar as a support/healer.