Will Justice Be Enforced in Tamriel?

ESO adds (part of) the Justice System in Update 6

ESO adds (part of) the Justice System in Update 6

When I attended the 2014 Guild Summit in October we were presented with a first look at the future of crime in ESO. We saw players stealing, murdering, and fleeing from guards; a set of features that TES enthusiasts have longed to see implemented in The Elder Scrolls Online. This was the “Justice System”, and as excited as I was to see that a player criminality system was coming to the game there was one feature of the presentation that excited me beyond any other. Law-abiding players would be able self-identify as “Enforcers”, who could assume the responsibility of preventing crime and apprehending (read killing) criminals. In my mind, this was a masterstroke by ZeniMax, finding a way to add not only crime but also voluntary player versus player combat throughout the lands of Tamriel. Granted, the proposed system had some drawbacks and flaws, but ultimately it solved most of the major problems inherent in bringing player crime to the game. The Enforcer system created a compelling risk and reward structure that allowed players to self-select into the type of gameplay experience that most appeals to them.

One of the most exciting pieces of the upcoming update 1.6 which should be arriving on ESO‘s live server before the end of the month includes the first phase of the Justice System. The reason for labeling this as the “first phase” is that unlike the PvP inclusive incarnation of the Justice System which we saw last October, ZeniMax has elected to release a limited version of the Justice system which allows players to participate in criminal activity with only NPC guards acting as law enforcement. ZOS has been fond of the multi-phase release plan, we’ve seen this strategy used also for both Craglorn and the Champion System transition, so this alone is no cause for concern. In fact, ZeniMax has stated in the past that the player enforcement component of the Justice System will be added in a later phase. Some recent comments by ZeniMax developers, however, have raised community concern that plans to proceed with the PvP side of Justice may be facing the chopping block. In a recent “Ask Us Anything” on the ESO subreddit, Matt Firor responded to the following question from @dominoid73:

Q: Please talk about how the PVP portion of the Justice system will work with Tamriel Unlimited. Is this portion now DLC?

Matt: This remains to be determined – I’ve been pretty clear that PvP justice is pretty scary from a game balance perspective, and we need to be very careful how we implement it. If/when it makes it in to the game, it will not be as part of a paid DLC.

This comment, along with several other instances ZeniMax employees avoiding questions about Justice System PvP have created a number of red flags that this side of the Justice System may never be added to the game. Initially when the multi-phase approach for the Justice System was announced, I harbored a number of concerns with the strategy, ones that have been confirmed after hands-on experience on the public test server. I believe that a PvE-only implementation of the Justice System would constitute a massive failure to live up to the potential of the system and moreover may be harmful to the economic balance of the existing game.

 

Risk, Reward, and Incentives

Tamriel is already a world in which death or failure is already essentially meaningless. Players can respawn in-place (sure it costs a soul gem, but who doesn’t have 10 thousand of those). Outside of trials where deaths penalize your completion time and soul reservoir, ESO players have little to fear from failure. This philosophy carries on through crime and the justice system, NPC guards are invulnerable death machines (take that, immersion!) and witnessed crimes can impose a costly bounty, but the current Justice system has blind spots a mile wide and loopholes you could ride a Guar through when it comes to avoiding these penalties. Why bother trying a risky attempt to pickpocket an innocent civilian when you can one-shot them with a sneak attack and take everything off their corpse? Your expected bounty is lower for cold-blooded murder than it is for petty larceny. You can be busy rifling through the corpse of a dead civilian right in front of a guard, but heaven forbid that you skewer a farmer’s chicken. The risk and incentive structures facing aspiring criminals in ESO are frankly broken, in a system with player-enforced PvP these inadequacies of NPC enforcement could be ignored in favor of the vastly more interesting (and dynamic) player vs. player element. Without player enforcement, however, the laughable flaws of the current system are left quite exposed.

You could carefully attempt to pickpocket this NPC and maybe get caught, or you could murder them and take everything with no risk!

You could carefully attempt to pickpocket this NPC and maybe get caught, or you could murder them and take everything with no risk!

 

Threat to Economic Balance

Bounties can be high, but they are too easy to avoid.

Bounties can be high, but they are too easy to avoid.

While testing the Justice System on the PTS, a guild-member was able to achieve a consistent and stable hourly return of 14,000 gold through theft, murder, and fencing (and this was before even upgrading the fence capacity). This rate of return exceeds even some of the most previously lucrative activities in the game. A typical run through Veteran Dragonstar Arena which generates some of the most desirable bind-on-equip gear in the current ESO economy generates an average return of around 10,000 gold per hour and requires the teamwork and coordination of four highly capable VR14 players. Likewise, farming Nirncrux and legendary upgrade materials in Upper Craglorn is replete with its own hazards where aggressive and dangerous packs of enemies deter many players. In contrast, the gold return achievable through the Justice System not only surpasses that of other activities, but it can be completed solo and without any demanding skill requirement.

Crime is by definition a “high risk, high reward” activity. To implement this properly in ESO, ZeniMax needs to do one of two things; either reduce the rewards from criminal behavior (in which case players would complain about the pointlessness of the system), or find a way to introduce substantial risk commensurate with the potential level of returns. Player enforcement was not an obvious answer to this question, but it was a cunning one. Players could provide natural balance to the system, the most lucrative areas for theft would also become the most popular areas for Enforcers to seek PvP. The higher the potential reward offered by a crime route, the more likely an Enforcer will be on-hand to deliver justice. Regardless of whether or not we eventually receive a PvP component of the Justice System, it will not arrive for several months. During the intermediate time, players will be free to earn massive amounts of gold by abusing the misaligned risk structure of a PvE only system. This could have serious consequences for the health of the game economy, leading to dramatic inflation and devaluation of game currency.

 

Neglect of the PvP Community

PvP is the best possible deterrent against crime.

PvP is the best possible deterrent against crime.

Perhaps the most significant reason why the PvP component of the Justice system must be added involves ZeniMax’ persistent neglect of the dedicated PvP community. While small balance adjustments and mechanical changes to Cyrodiil have been made, changes which improve the enjoyment of gameplay for PvP focused players have been few and far between. There are thousands of outspoken community members who are thrilled at the prospect of a more open-world and dynamic PvP experience delivered by the Justice System. It would be an opt-in system, Enforcers choose to wear their tabards making themselves PvP eligible. Player Outlaws opt-in to the system by acquiring a bounty, assuming the risk of PvP conflict as a result of their lawbreaking ways. The most obvious reason to exclude PvP Justice is out of respect for players who want to engage in a life of crime but explicitly do not want to face PvP repercussions. While I respect everyone’s right to enjoy the game in their own way, the need for appropriate risk associated with criminal actions far outweighs the need to protect deliberate lawbreakers from PvP. Players that wish to steal without threat of PvP can always choose to avoid towns and cities where Enforcers are more likely to be present.

The Imperial City is coming, but realistically this may not occur until after console release. I’m thrilled at the prospect of a Darkness Falls style dungeon combat in the IC Sewers, as well as the street level skirmishing of an urban combat environment, but the Justice System would add an additional outlet for PvP not captured by Cyrodiil or the Imperial City. Designing new content for PvP players is difficult, it’s relatively easy to release a new dungeon or zone to appease PvE enthusiasts, but with the Justice System ZeniMax hold in their hand a golden ticket to implement a system with dynamic and player-driven PvP content that can generate the kind of rare, epic, and memorable moments that make MMO gaming such a rewarding hobby.

 

To be clear, ZeniMax has not explicitly confirmed or denied that the PvP component of the Justice system is a part of their future plans. I am hopeful that the ESO community can encourage them for these reasons (and others) that there is no justice in a Justice System without player enforcement.

43 responses to “Will Justice Be Enforced in Tamriel?”

  1. Member Avatar
    Flaeor

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 4

    Orc Dragonknight

    I agree with literally everything you said. I REALLY REALLY hope they get the PvP part in before the end of the year, or my hopes for this game will go from high to dashed. I commend them for taking the time to get it right, but I have faith that they’ll get it “right enough” to warrant putting it in. If players want to steal and murder forever and quick save and quick load without repercussion, they should go play any of the other ES games. It was my favorite part of Morrowind by far, but the futility of it all became evident when I could kill everyone in the game. That simply won’t be true in an MMO. There will be no quick save/load. Emergent game play will be almost everywhere in Tamriel, and I can’t wait.

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    xaraan

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    Imperial Nightblade

    Entropy Rising

    They definitely need to get the PvP component of the Justice System out and not let it fall through the cracks (and hopefully not let it keep other actual content from getting more backed up).  Even without it, it’s too rewarding.  I pick-pocketed a bum begging for money in a city and got a candlestick worth more than a piece of my legendary morag tong gear — can begin to tell you how stupid that seems to me.  I think their stolen white stuff should be a couple gold piece, greens maybe 10-20 and blue’s 100g maybe, but giving 30+ for white, 100 for green and 250 for blue is crazy.  I mean, if they are going to roll that out that broken, I’ll spend a half hour making 10K everyday before getting into adventures I guess.  Why waste time getting into crafting and gathering stuff for that when you can get immediate riches with a fraction of the work and really zero risk.

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    Atropos

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    Imperial Sorcerer

    Entropy Rising

    Well-timed with this article, ZOS announced 1.6.3 patch notes today which contain the following Justice System changes. It’s hard to say prior to testing whether these changes will have a significant affect on the concerns expressed in the article. On one hand, they seem to be reducing the potential rewards from murder, but they are also adding more valuable purple items as rewards from theft and murder, so time will tell.

    Additionally, some new types of NPCs have been made “Justice aware”, which may reduce some of the blind spots in the system, but I still contend that without player enforcement the Justice system is deeply flawed.

    General

    • Murdered citizens now drop only one stolen item, unless their pockets have been completely emptied, in which case they will not drop any.
    • Fixed an issue that would sometimes result in a Talk prompt displaying when mousing over dead citizens.
    • Fixed an issue where some NPCs were responding to suspicious activities with normal greetings.
    • Guild Traders will now witness crimes.
    • Fleeing citizens no longer resume what they were previously doing a moment before despawning.
    • Some small bags will now have a chance to drop the occasional clothing accessory or other stolen item.
    • More than doubled the number of unique purple-quality stolen items to pockets, containers, and citizen corpses.
    • Fixed additional wording and icon issues for stolen items.
    • Neutral NPCs no longer glow white if you have the “Prevent attacking innocents” option turned on.
    • Fixed a number of locations that had owned or unowned interactable objects in places they should’ve been the opposite.
    • Hitting the Alt key while being accosted by a Guard will no longer close the dialog window.
    • Some locations associated with a specific zone, but separated by a loading screen, will now correctly share the zone’s stolen items as expected.
    • Fishers now always drop an appropriate amount of items in the bronze tier when killed or pickpocketed.

    Gameplay

    • Casting a heal over time on another player character who then quickly commits a crime in front of a guard will no longer share the guard’s ire with you.
    • Some of the NPCs that appear to be sharpening swords will now use those swords to defend themselves against you.
    • Bashing critters now kills them. They are fragile, and we are monsters.
    • NPCs that have their hands tied will no longer break their binds to fight you when they’re attacked. They can, however, witness crimes, and will react to assault and murder.
    • NPCs who react to crimes nonviolently no longer fail to defend themselves if attacked.

    Outlaws Refuges

    • The Daggerfall Outlaws Refuge now displays the correct map.
    • It is no longer as difficult to reach the Elden Root Outlaws Refuge from the Elden Root Wayshrine.
    • Bankers have been added to the Outlaws Refuges.

    Pickpocketing & Trespassing

    • NPCs that have nothing to pickpocket will no longer drop loot when murdered.
    • Merchants will now carry the appropriate amount of items in their pockets.
    • Added additional residents to many homes.
    • NPC thieves will now react to pickpocket failures with violence.
    • A number of Tamriel citizens have had their potential pickpocket loot expanded to reflect their chosen profession.
    • Added messaging when you attempt to pickpocket an NPC that doesn’t have anything in their pocket.
    • Fixed an issue where failing a pickpocket against a guard would cause that guard to always try to kill you, instead of simply arresting you. Guards will no longer declare eternal blood feuds.
    • More difficult pickpocketing targets now have a higher chance to drop better loot than easier pickpocketing victims.

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    xaraan

    Journeyman

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    Imperial Nightblade

    Entropy Rising

    Hmm, I don’t see much there that fixes the real imbalance with the system.  In fact increasing the purple drop rate is crazy, I never even saw a purple – wonder how over-valued those are?

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    Rainfeather

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    Redguard Dragonknight

    Tamriel Foundry Community

    I’ll just post for the sake of adding my support publically, as we’ve already discussed it elsewhere.

    The current version is a far cry from the original vision I had (and thought was intended). If they, by the looks of it, scrap the player enforcement aspect – I’d likely not bother with it at all. Primarily because of the afforementioned holes it has. Accepting this is its initial release, im still not sure its current scope does anything to positively advertise it in a way that will encourage improvement.

    Granted thats an aggressive stance but one that aligns with the sentiment; that in its current iteration its flawed and incomplete.

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    Tiberius

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    Altmer Sorcerer

    I agree with literally everything you said. However not putting the pvp aspect of the system in…..would be a huge…piss off.

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    Stalwart385

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    Breton Dragonknight

    Add me to the list of very unhappy with no PvP in the Justice system. I’ve always viewed my subscription as access to the game and further improvement. Access will be free now and improvements are headed to a step decline (by the sounds of it). Very concerned this could turn into a console cash grab.

    The justice system as is, is a distraction at best. RP’s and gold grinders would only find the value. With PvP it would be a new form of game play. If people don’t like it because of balance issues they can turn it off or head to cyrodil.

    I think the root of this is the growing contrast between cyrodil and the rest of the world. There will end up being PvE, PvP and cyrodil PvP. I’m all for building a new set and play style if necessary. I don’t know if they’re up to balancing another system.

    I hope your wrong.

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    Rainfeather

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    Redguard Dragonknight

    Tamriel Foundry Community

    Stalwart385 said on February 17, 2015 :

    Add me to the list of very unhappy with no PvP in the Justice system. I’ve always viewed my subscription as access to the game and further improvement. Access will be free now and improvements are headed to a step decline (by the sounds of it). Very concerned this could turn into a console cash grab.

    The justice system as is, is a distraction at best. RP’s and gold grinders would only find the value. With PvP it would be a new form of game play. If people don’t like it because of balance issues they can turn it off orhead to cyrodil.

    I think the root of this is the growing contrast between cyrodil and the rest of the world. There will end up being PvE, PvP and cyrodil PvP. I’m all for building a new set and play style if necessary. I don’t know if they’re up to balancing another system.

    I hope your wrong.

    Most of the people left that I know well, look on just the same. Wondering just how much focus will now be centered into the cash shop grab. So you certainly arent alone.

    Its not the system itself entirely. Content release rate was never going to be stellar with VO and scale anyway; be it standard or DLC; but more how priorities are likely to shift from actual quality content to gimmicks and casual appeasement from now on.

    The quote Andrew pulled in the article from ZOS, has been common theme across the board lately (any time the PvP aspect of the JS is mentioned) and at times, in an even more ‘IF it even happens’ manner. Which sets alarm bells from the start.

    Its no secret, especially after various arguements Ive had over the years (gw2 forums being one); that open world pvp is a conversational powder keg amongst the pve only crowd. That said I hoped for better in this game, specifically with its approach to PvP. ”hope you’re wrong” indeed.

     

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    Vizeroh

    Apprentice

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    Redguard Dragonknight

    I don’t agree, entirely. I have played plenty of MMOs that has had open ended pvp systems, those games aren’t around anymore. Most MMOs can not survive the changing of what MMOs need to do to survive. You are effectively saying.. This one skill line in ESO if you fail, or get caught you will be PK’ed (old school Runescape term here boys), by any player who decided.. ”I want to be a guard.” This is open world PvP, this is bad. Normally, I’d say, I don’t care, as most of these features are usually split between ”PvE or PvP Servers”, look at RIFT, WoW, and others. However, in ESO its one server. I like both PvE, and PvP, but I want the choice, not forced into having to PvP.

     

    Most players who leave MMOs don’t like change, and are quick to judge before seeing what will be. I left ESO after 4 months? (I don’t know the exact timing), of playing after launch. I left due to sheer boredom of PvE End Game, and PvP becoming boring as well. I came back due to the changes of which I heard was coming to 1.6, I’m hopeful that these changes will be what ESO was meant to be, more balanced classes, even more over tougher dungeons. Just seems like what it was meant to be, instead of having us beta test the game for a year.

     

    I can not comment on PTS, I do not play it. However I do know introducing PvP to a what should be PvE system is not the answer. There has to be a better answer to balance this system. I’m sure they will work on tweaking this as well in PTS as time goes on. Keep PvP and PvE split, there are far too many MMOs who have died due to this, I do not wish to see ESO become one of them.

     

    PS; I know many will say ”option settings” for PvP or not, but this is not the answer to what is suppose to be a 3 way faction war. I’ve said this before I left the game long ago. “PvP was extremely fun, until you find out that all people want to do is farm AP, and not going for objectives.”

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    Rial

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    Argonian Templar

    Tamriel Foundry Community

    Why are all the thieves in the pictures Arbonians and Khajiit? Now that’s just blatant man/mer privileged racism!

    Relax, I’m only being serious.

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    RaHur

    Scamp

    Total Posts: 1

    Khajiit Nightblade

    This one is satisfied with the changes that have been made to the justice system by ZOS.

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    Rainfeather

    Master

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    Redguard Dragonknight

    Tamriel Foundry Community

    ”the need for appropriate risk associated with criminal actions far outweighs the need to protect deliberate lawbreakers from PvP”

    Covers alot of the reasons for justified pvp enforcement in my group camp today.

    The current adjustment on the PTS proves how ludicrous this is. With the flood of NPC’s its still way too easy, comparitvely, to other means and will continue to be so unless its rendered almost pointless. Which im sure nobody really wants either.

    Enforcement offers the only real active threat to uncontrolled en-masse theft. Having an entire gaming community sneaking about town stealing 24/7 is in my mind ridiculous. It all too easily compromises the value of other content in its current form.

     

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     Welcome to Elder Casuals Online: Easymode Unlimited.

     

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    Leijona

    Journeyman

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    Bosmer Nightblade

    I’m not even a PvP player but nonetheless I really hope for PvP in the justice system, as it was the part of it, that I got most intrigued by at the Guild Summit.

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    wesphilly06

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    Khajiit Nightblade

    I think PVP aspect of Justice would make it much better. But the point i agree with you the most is the high risk high reward. I think they should up the rare items even more and put an even higher penalty on getting caught.

     

    If i could make the changes myself it would be;

    To be an enforcer a player had to have 0 bounty for a set period of time

    Make killing NPC, Enforcers, and Guards (make guards kill able) show on enforcer players map as red

    Make caught criminal players “disarm” before returning to the public, removing any weapons (only weapons) not bound to player removed upon capture. All stolen items would return to the owner (back to the game) and the player owned weapons that are confiscated are loot for the enforcer. This would help balance the economy and give bonus incentive for enforcers to well enforce. Criminals who kill enforcers can loot the body for 5% of the enforcers gold this would be taken from the player.

     

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    wsb79

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    Altmer Dragonknight

    I think unless there are some major changes then this has the potential to kill the economy in the game.   It seems like it is just too easy to make money in this system.  I fear the results of this will be some pretty serious inflation.  The addition of the PvP might help this some but overall that isn’t even the main problem.   It seems like this will inject a lot of gold into the economy and I really don’t see any new gold sink added to help remove some gold to even this out.  I am really worried about the inflation side of this.

     

     

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    Atropos

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    Imperial Sorcerer

    Entropy Rising

    Vizeroh said on February 18, 2015 :

    I don’t agree, entirely. I have played plenty of MMOs that has had open ended pvp systems, those games aren’t around anymore. Most MMOs can not survive the changing of what MMOs need to do to survive. You are effectively saying.. This one skill line in ESO if you fail, or get caught you will be PK’ed (old school Runescape term here boys), by any player who decided.. ”I want to be a guard.” This is open world PvP, this is bad. Normally, I’d say, I don’t care, as most of these features are usually split between ”PvE or PvP Servers”, look at RIFT, WoW, and others. However, in ESO its one server. I like both PvE, and PvP, but I want the choice, not forced into having to PvP.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I suppose I would argue that players do have the choice, if they specifically want to avoid PvP they can refrain from breaking the law! I think what some folks would say is “well, I want to participate in crime, but I don’t want to be killed by other players for it”. I can understand that, and I don’t disrespect the position of those sorts of players, but I don’t see an easy way for ZeniMax to make criminal activity carry enough risk otherwise. Justice System PvP wouldn’t force you into PvP unless you opt-in by either deliberately breaking the law or deliberately choosing to self-identify as an enforcer.

    Rial said on February 18, 2015 :

    Why are all the thieves in the pictures Arbonians and Khajiit? Now that’s just blatant man/mer privileged racism!

    If I’ve learned anything playing TES games, its that racial profiling has a history of reducing crime rates in Tamriel.

    wesphilly06 said on February 18, 2015 :

    I think PVP aspect of Justice would make it much better. But the point i agree with you the most is the high risk high reward. I think they should up the rare items even more and put an even higher penalty on getting caught.

    The problem with this, in my view, is if you try and make Justice higher risk with more patrolling guards and higher bounties, and you make it higher reward with higher value items to steal, there will end up being groups of players who learn tricks, techniques, or even exploits that allow them to reduce the risk component to essentially zero. What you’re left with is an extremely high reward activity with no risk. As long as it’s AI controlled guards trying to stop people from stealing thousands of gold, I suspect clever players will find a way around the system.

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    detroitrex

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    Bosmer Templar

    Atropos said on February 18, 2015 :

    The problem with this, in my view, is if you try and make Justice higher risk with more patrolling guards and higher bounties, and you make it higher reward with higher value items to steal, there will end up being groups of players who learn tricks, techniques, or even exploits that allow them to reduce the risk component to essentially zero. What you’re left with is an extremely high reward activity with no risk. As long as it’s AI controlled guards trying to stop people from stealing thousands of gold, I suspect clever players will find a way around the system.

    I agree with you about the pvp component of justice being really interesting, and I’d love to see it. But (I’m assuming) the vigilantes among us are only going to be able to go after players with bounties anyway. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I mug/rob someone/place, and no one is the wiser, why exactly would I be an eligible target for Enforcers?

    Will you still not have “groups of players who learn tricks, techniques, or even exploits that allow them to reduce the risk component to essentially zero”?

    As I understand it, the system is still reliant on AI witnesses flagging you as a dirty thief. We’re just trading out AI-controlled “invulnerable death-machines” (great phrase, btw) for some good, ol’ fashioned pvp. Where death is the penalty for even petty offenses, apparently.

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    Jahoel

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    Imperial Templar

    Atropos said on February 18, 2015 :

    I suppose I would argue that players do have the choice, if they specifically want to avoid PvP they can refrain from breaking the law! I think what some folks would say is “well, I want to participate in crime, but I don’t want to be killed by other players for it”. I can understand that, and I don’t disrespect the position of those sorts of players, but I don’t see an easy way for ZeniMax to make criminal activity carry enough risk otherwise. Justice System PvP wouldn’t force you into PvP unless you opt-in by either deliberately breaking the law or deliberately choosing to self-identify as an enforcer.

    Good arguments for both sides, in my opinion. Though I tend to agree with you that PvP should be included, and players shouldn’t participate in criminal activity if they are not willing to have Enforcers attempt to bring them to justice (not much different than the NPC guards, anyways – and certainly no one has much of a  problem with them being in the game). If griefing was the issue, there is an option to put players on your ignore list. Now they’re just unscripted guards/bandits. Problem solved.

    I guess my personal argument is:

    “I want to participate in the Justice System, but don’t want to be a criminal.” Where’s the love for folks like me if we don’t get the PvP portion of the system? At a minimum, I’d want a parallel PvE justice system for law-abiding players/characters with complimenting skill-line (something like the bandit lairs that were hinted at before). Something to make not being a criminal as rewarding as being one. That would be enough, I suppose, if justice PvP is just not going to happen. Optimally, though, I want the whole system that was teased to us before, complete with PvP. I’m sure there are others who feel the same.

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    myohozen

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    Altmer Dragonknight

    If I recall correctly the reason (maybe the only reason) for putting a justice system into the game was to lay the foundation for the upcoming thieves and assassins Guides, what I don’t recall is if the PVP part was in the original announcement or something they started talking about later. I wonder how having Enforcers in the game would affect players doing quest for the thieves and assassins Guides.

     

    Also after the game is goes B2P will the game developers will still as sensitive to player concerns/complaints as they were when they were collecting a $15 a month sub from “all” the players?

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    Relic

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    Nord Nightblade

    Messiah Complex

    Just thought I would make a rare appearance to 2nd your thoughts. To me the whole point of justice was to answer extensive calls on the ESO forums.

    Those calls were for “user defined” – dynamic – player created content (in many forms). This was “the big picture”. Zeni wont (and cant ever) produce enough content to satisfy demand in the shape of new zones to satisfy the subscription model (real content and not eye candy). The “ONLY” option was to fill that content gap with player created content instead. Especially with Cyrodiil being so bugged it was effectively dead or a shadow of what was intended.

    eg. what happended to wrothgar ? what happened to imperial city ? what happended to spell crafting ? what happened to new “tangible” content every 6 weeks ?

    So if you take away the PVP aspect from the justice system (player created content)….you also completely remove the time sink between what effectively will become DLCs. This leaves us in the situation everyone screams about. No new content and almost unusable player created content in the form of cyrodiil.

    OK I can see the PVE crowd point of view regarding theft without consequence. But to me they have completely missed the whole point of the system. Dynamic unpredictable content that is ever changing and never gets boring..rather than the stage managed system in place. How long before you get bored with the same old, same old activity with the same old responses ?

    Yes the current justice system is a time sink…..but not for long. It will get stale. People will get bored with it if it never takes PVP form.

    Funny enough ZOS had a similar stance to random spawns in dungeons to make them more dynamic and unpredictable. I see a trend.

    There will be no Empire. We will bow before none.

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